cannabisnews.com: Drug Money? Drug Money? Posted by CN Staff on October 05, 2007 at 11:36:07 PT By Jennifer Abel Source: Hartford Advocate Connecticut -- Even if you're a law-abiding citizen who's never been convicted of a crime, local police are allowed to confiscate your property and money and keep up to 80 percent of it for themselves, with the legal stipulation that this windfall be spent only on programs likely to result in additional confiscations where the police can keep up to 80 percent of the booty for themselves. That's addressed to you. And it's no joke. "The money can only be used for the police department ... it gets recycled back into drug work [and] it can't supplant normally budgeted items," says Detective Tom Gameli, who handles these confiscations for the West Hartford police department. The police in West Hartford had a profitable year; at the last council meeting on Sept. 25, a resolution passed that moved close to $180,000 in money made from property taken in forfeiture cases in West Hartford, into the local drug enforcement fund. But the cops can't just sit back and wait for fate to shower them with such largess, Gameli said. "For us to get the money, we have to seize the stuff."He's talking about asset forfeiture, one of the more devastating weapons in the government's drug war arsenal. The rationale behind it sounds sensible enough: if you make money from criminal activities, you shouldn't get to keep your ill-gotten gains. And whether you agree with the law or not, intoxicants other than alcohol are illegal, so money made from the sale of such is (legally) fair game for confiscation. But so is anything else that has any involvement with drug activity. If you want to buy a joint, you can lose the car you drove to make the deal. The same holds true if a friend or spouse borrows your car for the same purpose. The confiscated car is sold at auction, and the police force that nabbed it gets to keep 70 or 80 percent of the proceeds, depending upon the car's value."Most of the money we get from state asset forfeiture, because the feds have higher [monetary] standards," Gameli said. "If you're gonna take a house, you go through the feds, if you take $250 from a knucklehead on the street, you go state ... the federal threshold is $2,000 for cash, $5,000 for cars." If it's a federal case the town police get to keep 80 percent of the proceeds, but they only get 70 percent on the state level."We've done polls," said Ethan Nadelmann, executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance. "Two things about asset forfeiture the public dislikes: first, that when cops and prosecutors seize property they get to keep it for their own departments, the public finds that corrupting ... and second, that you could lose your property without a criminal conviction."How can the government take your money or property if you haven't been convicted of a crime? "These are civil cases," Gameli said, and they differ from criminal ones. "It bolsters the case if he's convicted [of a crime]," Gameli said, but "a civil case has a lower standard of proof ... I know of cases where the guy walked on the charges, but still lost his car or his money."Bruce Mirken of the Marijuana Policy Project finds that disturbing. "What he's saying, it sounds like, is that he thinks it's just fine for the government to take property from people who have been found innocent of the alleged crime ... In what parallel universe is that fair, just or reasonable?" Calling these "civil" cases implies that they are reviewed by the courts, but that's not necessarily true."Generally speaking ... approximately 80 percent or more of civil forfeiture cases are not contested," says Allen St. Pierre, executive director of NORML (National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws). This is in part because contesting the process can cost more than the value of what's been confiscated."The average vehicle seized is worth about $4,000," said Brenda Grantland, president of FEAR (Forfeiture Endangers American Rights). "To defend a case, especially when you're out of state, they've pretty much made it cost prohibitive. I don't take cases of less than $20,000 ... it'll cost more than that to defend it." Neither Gameli nor the DEA could say what percentage of their confiscations came from people actually convicted of a crime, or from folks who lost in-court civil cases.*Remember Gameli's hypothetical "knucklehead" who enriched the local constabulary? Chances are he had drugs on him too. But not necessarily — under asset forfeiture laws, the simple possession of cash, with no drugs or other contraband, can be considered evidence of criminal activity.You'll find no shortage of examples throughout the country. Two recent examples, chosen only because they're so unremarkable, are as follows: in October 2006, two men driving through Davidson County, North Carolina, were stopped by sheriff's deputies and found to have $88,000 hidden in their car. The men told the sheriffs they were on their way to buy a house in Atlanta. Although no drugs were found, the sheriffs confiscated the money anyway. And just last August, a truck driver at a weigh station in El Paso had $23,700 confiscated; once again, no drugs or contraband were found, but the cash led to an assumption of guilt.Naturally, police and the DEA insist they're not infringing upon the rights of innocent people. "The police won't take [the money] if they have a good excuse," says Steve Robertson, a DEA spokesman down in D.C., when asked about cases like the one in El Paso. "I would assume he was listed in a database where he might be drug-related.""Databases contain errors," said Mirken. "Just look at the TSA's no-fly list, which at one point almost kept Sen. Edward Kennedy off a flight as a suspected terrorist ... the idea that government should be able to simply take a person's money, house or car without having to prove the person did anything wrong is obscene."*Allen St. Pierre says that in such cases, "the onus and total burden is entirely on the citizen/business to disprove the government's case" in such situations. Robertson of the DEA agrees. If you can prove the money wasn't acquired illegally, then the police won't take it.But that leads to a problem. Say that every week when you cash your paycheck you stick a $100 bill in a coffee can. If the police want to confiscate this cash years later, the onus should be on them to prove the money is illegal, because you might not be able to prove it isn't."Property rights are not considered as important as personal liberty, so due process is often reduced," Grantland said. "We've been fighting for years to get [asset forfeiture] under control, but there's no way it'll go away because the government gets too much money doing it." Even proving where you got the money might not save you, Grantland said. "Some victims called us a few years ago ... he'd just won a medical malpractice settlement ... he and his friends, low-income black guys, decided to go to Las Vegas [and] got as far as Plano, Texas. It got confiscated. They even showed them the settlement ... I don't know if they ever got their money back."West Hartford probably has a few residents who like to smoke the occasional unlicensed cigarette behind closed doors. And from the cops' perspective, there's a lot of money to be made cracking down on these criminals. So one of the items on the agenda at last week's town council meeting said this: "Resolution appropriating drug asset forfeiture money in the Drug Enforcement Fund."The measure passed unanimously. Deputy Mayor Art Spada was not in attendance, but Mayor Scott Slifka and all seven members of the council were. Do the council members know that some of that windfall money could have been confiscated from folks who were not found guilty of any crimes? We sent an e-mail asking "do you, as elected officials, have any Constitutional and/or ethical qualms about the police confiscating property from town residents who were not convicted of a crime?"As of press time, four days later, none had responded. Note: Welcome to the world of civil asset forfeiture: enriching the local police at your expense. Source: Hartford Advocate (CT)Author: Jennifer Abel Published: Thursday, October 04, 2007Copyright: 2007 New Mass Media, Inc.Contact: editor hartfordadvocate.comWebsite: http://www.hartfordadvocate.com/FEARhttp://www.fear.org/NORMLhttp://www.norml.org/Drug Policy Alliancehttp://www.drugpolicy.org/CannabisNews Justice Archiveshttp://cannabisnews.com/news/list/justice.shtml Home Comment Email Register Recent Comments Help Comment #85 posted by Toker00 on October 09, 2007 at 03:36:45 PT whig I met this man personally when I went to Dallas two years ago when ASA petitioned HHS for the re-scheduleing of Cannabis. I have pictures. ASA got mad at me because I insisted on using my pot leaf infested protest posters at their rally. Norml was there too, and supported my signs. It was quite an experience. I was honored to shake his hand and thank him for his courage.Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #84 posted by whig on October 08, 2007 at 20:06:17 PT Toker00 I think he'd be fine if he gets off those terrible meds. [ Post Comment ] Comment #83 posted by whig on October 08, 2007 at 20:03:29 PT Toker00 Texas patient....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlXKnhWRERE [ Post Comment ] Comment #82 posted by whig on October 08, 2007 at 19:59:54 PT Every state is different What Colorado is doing is new and different to what other states have done before. I love their model. I don't know if that works in Texas, or wherever else it might be tried. [ Post Comment ] Comment #81 posted by whig on October 08, 2007 at 19:58:10 PT Toker00 Alright, what can I do to help you over there? [ Post Comment ] Comment #80 posted by Toker00 on October 08, 2007 at 19:05:20 PT FoM Either way is ok, isn't it? ;)Tolor00Tayker00 [ Post Comment ] Comment #79 posted by FoM on October 08, 2007 at 15:32:59 PT No No No I meant Toker00. [ Post Comment ] Comment #78 posted by FoM on October 08, 2007 at 15:30:27 PT Taylor00 OK! [ Post Comment ] Comment #77 posted by Toker00 on October 08, 2007 at 15:16:41 PT FoM You just stay right there in the middle and we will all just work toward you with peace and pot! But you may have to rent us a few of your horse stalls for the night...Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #76 posted by FoM on October 08, 2007 at 14:39:30 PT Toker00 I sure hope I have good other things too even though I'm not sure what you are talking about! I don't like starting or ending anything. I'm quite comfy right in the middle. LOL! [ Post Comment ] Comment #75 posted by Toker00 on October 08, 2007 at 14:20:20 PT whoM Well, OK! You start at that end and I'll start at this one and we'll meet in the middle of our new government, what ya say?Oh, I was just joking about the tear, folks. But I truly am sorry when I offend someone. Truly. Yeah, FoM, that's about what everyone else says about me. Well, at least he has a good heart! Ha! I got good other things too, ya know. Maybe you don't. But I do. Having a good heart seems to be a good thing, so I'm satisfied with that. :)Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #74 posted by FoM on October 08, 2007 at 13:44:00 PT afterburner Happy Thanksgiving to you. I love that song. I am so very happy that we had a chance to meet you. You are very special. [ Post Comment ] Comment #73 posted by afterburner on October 08, 2007 at 13:35:52 PT Rick Steves' Europe US CA: Column: Creative Thinking http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v07/n1152/a06.html (Sun, 7 Oct 2007) San Francisco Chronicle (CA) Rick Steves' Europe [ Post Comment ] Comment #72 posted by afterburner on October 08, 2007 at 11:21:44 PT OT: Happy Canadian Thankgiving, American Friends I was a little uncertain about whether I might have to spend the holiday alone due to work hours. Then, I heard "What a Wonderful World" by Louis Armstrong. Since then, I have been making a mental list of things I am thankful for. Cannabisnews is certainly one of those blessings. Now, the feast is ready and my son and I will chow down.Peace. LOUIS ARMSTRONG - WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD LYRICS [ Post Comment ] Comment #71 posted by whig on October 08, 2007 at 10:45:27 PT Toker00 I don't fear the government because I can defeat them.And so can you. [ Post Comment ] Comment #70 posted by FoM on October 08, 2007 at 10:32:04 PT afterburner The price would drop dramatically and that would be so helpful to people with a limited income. [ Post Comment ] Comment #69 posted by afterburner on October 08, 2007 at 10:23:24 PT True Costs: RE fight_4_freedom #2 Here in Canada for $16.49 Canadian dollars, I can buy one pound (16 oz. = 454 grams) of ground 100% Certified Organic Hemp Seeds. (We can grow it here subject to endless government red-tape). Imagine the true cost of legal medical cannabis if Big Pharma, Big Alcohol and Big Government would ALLOW THE FREE MARKET TO RULE and stop persecuting this God-given healing plant and the people who benefit from it! [ Post Comment ] Comment #68 posted by FoM on October 08, 2007 at 09:27:11 PT Toker00 There is one thing I know about you. You have a good heart. [ Post Comment ] Comment #67 posted by Toker00 on October 08, 2007 at 09:22:31 PT whig Sorry little Brother. I didn't mean to be so rude. Something has happened in my life to remind me that how I see myself is not how others see me. That what I want to project is not what I actually do project. Many times I defend myself when there is no reason to do so. It's been brought to my attention that I have the ability to intimidate and offend without knowing it. I apologize to you. And all the others out there. (Toker breaks out tool chest and begins working, in ernest, on his "Self". These rough edges have just got to go...) Sorry world, sorry...(tear drop) :(Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #66 posted by FoM on October 08, 2007 at 09:13:29 PT Hope I'm glad Carl is going to be ok. The thrashing that can happen when a person is coming out of an induced coma can be dramatic to say the least. Imagine being in a state of no pain and then as you awaken you feel the pain. He slept thru the worst so that is merciful. [ Post Comment ] Comment #65 posted by Toker00 on October 08, 2007 at 09:05:01 PT whig I know you are not against me bro. I was just wondering why you think I fear the government more. You might be right. In my fear of them I have confronted them. I will continue to confront them. I hope they make me so fearful that I develop enough courage to defeat them and their laws. I guess it may be the laws I fear more than the Man, what do you think? :)Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #64 posted by Hope on October 08, 2007 at 09:01:37 PT This thread was overwhelming last night. My response sounded saccharin and silly, probably. I worried about it after I posted it. I was very tired, and as I said, somewhat overwhelmed by all that's in this thread...and I couldn't help but start dwelling on how much I think of all of you and how much you all mean to me. The few family members that Carl has, have had to leave the hospital during his long sleep, and of course, you can't get information from the hospital like you used to could. But the last time I talked to someone who had spoken with them, they said that they had been assured that he would be alright. The doctors changed his medications and have been able to bring him to more conciousness without the thrashing. I was told that he had been able to respond to some questioning with nods. It's probably good that he's had this time to heal. They'd probably get him out of there as soon as possible under normal circumstances and he's a burly guy with a hard labor job, so the induced coma time has probably given him more time to heal than he would have had.It's frustrating that I can't learn more about what is happening, but I feel pretty assured that he's going to be ok, now. I really appreciate your agreeing in prayer with me, for his sake. The anxiety I felt for his situation was really bad. For some reason, I had a terrible feeling we were going to lose him. I'm thinking he got the extra attention he needed, through Grace, and I feel better now. Thank you for the assurance I recieved knowing you had petitioned for him, too.About the fear being discussed. Fear has so many definitions. Sometimes when we say that we are afraid...it might be better to say that we are deeply concerned. [ Post Comment ] Comment #63 posted by greenmed on October 08, 2007 at 03:07:12 PT generators I see no problem with the idea of an axle generator. The output would be DC, though, with some way to regulate the voltage to the standard 12, 24 or 48 volts. The stronger the water current (or wind speed for a wind turbine), the larger the electrical current.P(watts) = V(DC volts) * I(amps)Interesting information, including inverters for converting DC to AC, is provided here:http://www.gaiam.com/retail/SolarLivingThe set-up cost is steep, but is bound to drop as these systems become more popular and widespread. [ Post Comment ] Comment #62 posted by whig on October 08, 2007 at 02:56:22 PT Toker00 You were the person talking about fear in #33.I'm not against you. Why do you seem to think I am? [ Post Comment ] Comment #61 posted by Toker00 on October 08, 2007 at 02:51:28 PT whig Really, whig? Thanks for that bit of info. Maybe they should, though. Why do you pick me to say that too? Others are just as "leery" of our government. Why pick me out of the pack, whig? How did you determine that I am more afraid of the government than any of the rest of us, including you? I don't fear the structure of government. I fear the liars and the deceivers that run it. I fear what's going to happen to those who DON'T fear this government. Move along little doggies. Don't mistake the "fear" I exude of this government for weakness. My courage is as large as my fear.I guess if I lived in a state where cannabis is legal medicine and if I had an approved condition for a doctor's recommendation, I wouldn't be quite as leery. I'm glad you don't have to worry as much now. Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #60 posted by whig on October 07, 2007 at 21:37:45 PT Fear vs. hope I'm personally not going to vote out of fear. I'm not going to vote for Hillary Clinton if she's the Democratic nominee, out of fear from the Republican nominee. I'm only going to support a candidate who I think is good. Not a lesser evil. [ Post Comment ] Comment #59 posted by whig on October 07, 2007 at 21:30:13 PT Toker00 Most people don't fear the government like you do. [ Post Comment ] Comment #58 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 21:04:41 PT Hope I am calling it a day but how is Carl doing now? [ Post Comment ] Comment #57 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 20:55:30 PT museman All I can think to say is I'm really sorry. I really am. [ Post Comment ] Comment #56 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 20:51:04 PT Hope Thank you. I love all of you too. Our biker friend said he has no idea how I can do this day after day. He was here when I started doing CNews and I'm still doing CNews. I am exhausted and couldn't think what to say to museman tonight since I'm overloaded right now. These friends from opposite ends of the country are very important to us. We shared our young and crazy years together and we all have learned from those times. Connecting with our past is good for us. They aren't afraid to say that they love me. How sweet is that? [ Post Comment ] Comment #55 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 20:42:46 PT nuevo mexican Thank you. I checked out the link and that seems like me. I checked my husband's and it was like him but not me. I knew when our friend from Arizona called that it was going to be one of those times where everything will and must fall together. I knew it was urgent. He called around 1 today and his Father that he loved dearly died about 9. He made it all those miles and was where he was suppose to be at the time he had to be there. Our other friend talked about the dress his Mother was buried in. It was a polka dot dress from when she was young and he said she looked so pretty. She died of thyroid cancer. Amazing time this has been. [ Post Comment ] Comment #54 posted by Hope on October 07, 2007 at 20:23:35 PT FoM. Because we're friends...somehow. That's why you're telling us those things. We're a new kind of friend that has been born of this cyber age. That's why we share all of this. The movie. The Bust. Sadly, another one. The losses. The sorrows shared. The knowledge and understanding shared. This internet stuff...it's like a connection of spirits...or souls. We know each other on a deep level...yet we wouldn't know each other if we passed on the street.I really care about all you. Very much. I can't explain it...but I do care what is happening to all of you and what you all think. So many tears. Losses. Gains. Joys. Understandings. Insights. Sharing in lives of people that I wouldn't even know if it weren't for this odd phenomenon of the internet and computers, this new and very powerful form of communication.I'm sorry about the ticket and the pain of having the studio invaded by agents of the government that had no business being there acting like they were acting. I'm sorry about the old lady that called in the government because she could hear drums. I know you were happy about that studio, Museman...and I'm sad that it's been messed up.I tried to watch that movie on this computer, and it didn't work. I'll try on a couple or three others that I can get access to within the next week or so. Maybe I can get it seen somehow.It's been a powerful emotion packed weekend, especially today, for you, FoM. These conversations, especially on this thread, are deep and important...and with the kind of things you've been experiencing with your close friends on top of all that, FoM, I can imagine how distracting and strange all that could add up to be. You shared all that with us, so we'd know. As we should...and it helps and is right somehow. I don't know why, either, but it is. We have some kind of good fellowship of minds here that has been helpful in some way, I'm sure, to us all at one time or another in some way.It's peculiar...but it's good...and I'm glad we have this venue and this "roundtable" of minds and spirits. Like FoM said. It will either be alright...or it won't, but there is support here, and friendship, and sharing of somewhat like minds that is just good. [ Post Comment ] Comment #53 posted by nuevo mexican on October 07, 2007 at 20:08:58 PT Maybe this will help FOM.... Scorpio is the sign of problem-solving, transformation, death/rebirth, psychic/counseling abilities, and as I like to say to my many Scorpio friends, you are the 'ticket-takers' for those who need to be comforted as they leave the Earth Plane for the 'other side'.As half of most Scorpios' are already on the 'other side'.Psychically speaking, as they are investigators, researchers, detective-like, and see through the BS!Scorpio is ruled by the planets Mars (the Energy Planet) and Pluto, (the 'other side' or the 'battery' of the Universe) the 'unseen' aspect of what we call God, or the 'all the is', as opposed to the Sun, which is the 'visible' version of God, or the 'all that is'. The seen and unseen, love (the Sun) and that which love heals (Pluto).Thus, the sign of Scorpio in Egypt was associated with embalming, cemetery's, funerals, and those involved with releasing the soul from the body to go back home to 'God'Most likely, it relates to you losing your son to HIV, and is something that seems to happen frequently to Scorpio mothers, due to your spiritual strength and integrity as people associate your personality traits with with holiness, or Godliness. I'm sure he's a guardian angel for you, if you believe in the afterlife.Pretty intense to be you guys! And when it rains it usually pours! Like today.Those folks calling you seek your strength as Stick and everyone here does as well! Thank you for being you!I find this interesting as well: A hole in the Great Pyramid aligned with a Fixed Star would time the release of the soul, as a sacred 'handle' would release the soul from the sarcophagus, when the star light would come though the hole, and our 'light' would go 'home'.Something the sign of Scorpio was entrusted with in the days of yore!Pretty cool sign considering all of the crap you deal with as Scorpio is a water sign and rules plumbing, bathrooms, compost and filtration systems!Pretty good info http://www.findyourfate.com/astrology/Scorpio.htm [ Post Comment ] Comment #52 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 18:29:26 PT Just a Comment If I am not connecting too well today I have been going thru intense emotions. Our friend from Pa who stood up for us when we got married visited. His Mother passed away a week ago and we sat and talked. He was what I call a big biker dude. I saw him cry. He never cried. He's tough. My other friend called me from Yuma, Arizona the other day and said he was coming home because his Dad was dying of kidney failure. He said they really couldn't afford it but he had to come and I encouraged him not to worry about the money but get back here as soon as possible. When we were outside saying good bye to our biker friend the phone rang and it was our other friend from Yuma. He said he arrived in town. This friend is a tall and big African American friend we also have known since the early 70s. He just called from the hospital and he was crying and he called to tell me his father just passed away. The whole family was at his side. I don't know why I am sharing this but it is something to think how things can fall together in the worst of times for people. That is the miracle of it all for me. [ Post Comment ] Comment #51 posted by museman on October 07, 2007 at 18:18:12 PT Had Enough Just to clarify, the studio they shut down is the one we just set up in Eugene, -not my bus- hundreds of dollars to sound proof, but one elderly xtian lady could 'hear drums,...'The whole mj ticket happened right under my nose, and though they went all through everything -ransacking -tracking in mud and refuse on the brand new carpets, and effectively shutting down the music -I didn't know that one of my sons had forgotten some proper 'stash' ettiquette and goten himself a 'decriminalized' citation, or fine of $250, or I would have had some things to say to the cops. However they held all four of my sons outside by force, and I was oblivious until they came in to search. For some reason they didn't come upstairs for a while. I was upstairs with headphones on. They took one look at me and got out as quickly as they could. By the time I was putting on my shoes to go see what was up, they had left.They just want money, so no one got to get the wonderful world of Bob Barker Enterprises -the price must be right- handed to them in exchange for their street clothes.Thank you my friend. [ Post Comment ] Comment #50 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 18:02:26 PT John and Yoko: Give Peace a Song On World Link TV we are watching the making of Give Peace a Chance. Timothy Leary was there too. If you get World Link TV it is worth a look. [ Post Comment ] Comment #49 posted by Had Enough on October 07, 2007 at 17:49:58 PT Axle Generator Yes Toker I can see how that would work up to a point.The critical area would be the RPM of the generator shaft. It has to be within a certain window as the RPM’s affect the frequency of the voltage. Look on almost any electrical appliance nameplate and you will see its voltage, amperage, and frequency ratings. The frequency ratings are measured in Hz. A typical American rating is 60Hz. European ratings are at 50hz.60 Hz =60 cycles per second. You can see this on an oscilloscope. Hence the term Alternating Current.Wind power can be effective as water power. Use a prop off an airplane.Good idea. Axle generator. [ Post Comment ] Comment #48 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 17:28:37 PT Had Enough I have had some really serious issues to deal with in my life and after making it thru those times I find it hard to let anything really upset me. I don't know if you understand but that is why I just try to have hope and if it doesn't have a good outcome I will be ok with it. [ Post Comment ] Comment #47 posted by Had Enough on October 07, 2007 at 17:19:59 PT Anger FoMYou had asked museman what he was angry about not too long ago. This is it. For years museman and others have tried to point out things like that are in the movie, only for us to get ridiculed, slandered, called names, referred to as radicals, liberals, Satan Worshipers, etc.. Fined, tossed in jail, denied employment, physically beaten, and the list goes on and on.To see all that info all wrapped up in one package like that is amazing.I kinda thought museman would like that flick. My thoughts on the movie are pretty close to his if not the same.That is where the anger comes from. It’s not really anger though; it’s more frustration than anything else. It can also be mistaken for anger as well. In turn that can become anger. The bust.There they go again. They saw an opportunity to control a part of the masses when they busted musemans studio. All the problems we have in this world and that is how they delegate their resources. Raid a bus converted to a studio just to show everyone who’s boss and has control. Pathetic!!!I hope those cops screwed up somewhere and musemans youngin’ can spend that 250 American Greenback Dollars on something more essential like food, maybe clothing, maybe shelter, dog food, guitar strings, maybe drumsticks for runruff. Anything but giving it to the same people to deal out more grief that you just received it from.I hope nobody had to get booked into the local crossbar hotel and get bailed out.One of these days this crap will stop. One way or another it will.Thanks for checking in and filling a special request with all that you’ve had to deal with. and peace to you brother, you can probably use some by now… [ Post Comment ] Comment #46 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 16:41:09 PT Toker00 That's one is out of my league. I am not mechanically inclined. We are watching Link TV Bush's Climate of Fear. It's good. [ Post Comment ] Comment #45 posted by museman on October 07, 2007 at 16:38:35 PT Had Enough -Zeitgeist Thanks for noticing. Just watched the movie this AM after experiencing prohibition up close and personal once again-last night. The cops shut down our studio, and basicly ransacked the place looking for pot. One of my sons got a $250 'ticket.'I found the movie quite vindicating, and I will download and distribute it, as I find about 98% of it to be right on.The source of the problem is illustrated quite well I believe, though I believe that there is a bit of calculated omission that could damage the potential impact, and possibly a little creative stretching going on here and there -particualrly in some of the loose 'scriptural' associations early in the movie, but over all it is essentially correct in the statements, and the premises being made -in my opinion.This movie, after waking up this morning with new and greater understanding of the anger that provokes such things as 'freedom fighters' 'revolutionaries' and general revolt, gives me some hope. It feels good to have what most of the world throws back in your face on a daily basis, confirmed artfully, and with intelligence.Thanks toke"That being said, It is my hope that people will not take what is said in the film as the truth, but find out for themselves, for truth is not told, it is realized."I'd like to add, that all one needs to gain the truth is an unrelenting desire to obtain it, and a distinct avoidance of comfortable plattitudes. [ Post Comment ] Comment #44 posted by Toker00 on October 07, 2007 at 16:05:24 PT Generators... Did you know that a generator can be made from the rear axle of a car? I don't know this for a fact, but it stands to reason. It can be made into a generator by placing one modified wheel into a fast moving stream or river to provide the energy and rigging the yoke up to a generator motor. I'm not sure how you would regulate the volts, but I'm sure the rpms would be there for generating SOME regulatable electricity. Now, this is just something I was told by an old auto mechanic many years ago, but if it is reliable, you would only need water power and an old rear end to generate the necessary electricity that could be stored in batteries or hard wired if you lived close enough to the water source.Anyone care to debunk this idea? Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #43 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 15:58:59 PT Had Enough My energy goes into following Senator Obama's blog and hoping that we get a majority of Democrats in power in 08 because we stand a chance at getting the laws on medical marijuana changed. The Republicans must not win or I think I will give up and find something else to try to change. I don't believe in losing causes. [ Post Comment ] Comment #42 posted by Had Enough on October 07, 2007 at 15:38:20 PT Cross of the Zodiac Here is picture of Neil Young’s’ hood ornament.http://tinyurl.com/3yqkkoThat is the same image as the Cross of the Zodiac. It has rounded corners instead of being a circle though. Some might think that could represent the four corners of the universe or maybe the seasons.I’ve noticed the images for a while now. They are everywhere.There are many depictions of Christ with his head centered on that “Cross of the Zodiac”There is info in the movie that can represent this much better than I can. If you do see the movie it might help to see the connection. [ Post Comment ] Comment #41 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 14:29:58 PT Toker00 and Had Enough I agree about organized religion. That's why I don't have anything to do with them. Had Enough if it gets that bad that we can't have any fuel for a generator then we are so far gone we might as well get ready for how bad it will be. We can live with food, water and heat. We have plenty of water around here. In the Bible it tells you to run and don't go back to the city. We left the city back in the 70s. I knew to do that back then. [ Post Comment ] Comment #40 posted by Had Enough on October 07, 2007 at 14:21:58 PT Generators & the Middle East There might be some mellower places in the Middle East that are excluded from the war. But still it is too close to those who wish to have nothing to do with it.Your motto parallels mine pretty much. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.Problem with generators is, you have to have fuel to run them. Sooner or later it will stop. Gasoline used to be a higher quality in the 70’s than it is now. Diesel and LP/Natural Gas generators are very costly. Today’s gas goes sour after about 3 weeks. It even smells watered down when you pump it fresh.In this area generators are going up about 75 American Greenback Dollars per year.I bought one in 2005 for 550. Today the comparable ones are selling for 699 on up.But there are some that are cheaper, but they over rate them by using the peak wattage output. This change in the advertising ratings makes people think they are getting more generator than they really are. They did the same thing with stereo amps and car radios years ago.I noticed that they started using that sales technique about a year ago. [ Post Comment ] Comment #39 posted by Toker00 on October 07, 2007 at 14:17:42 PT FoM That's just it. Republicans and Democrats are neither serious about "Religion",except as a tool for them to use to manipulate very large and wealth laden masses who have been successfully brainwashed by these Religions into giving ALL for these beliefs, even Life itself, their wealth and Free Will or Self Thought having been exchanged for this Belief. Very powerful tool, religion. The Business of Beliefs. If you believe what we have to sell you, then drop your money in the plate and live your life the way we or the government we represent tell you to. You have your choice of flavors. Christianity, Islam, Jewish, Hindu...and so forth. Rather than believe what Nature teaches us, we are forced to chose between beliefs based on Deceit and Illusion, the tools of Satan or Evil or whatever the negatives of the Universe go by these days. Zeitgeist simply points out the origin of the Pagan come Christian belief system and how it is strikingly similar to Egyptian beliefs of thousands of years before and relates heavily to Astrology, not a Divine happening. Not very original, those Romans, uh, I mean Christians. If Mankind becomes extinct or imprisoned, it is only because we are too afraid to save ourselves. Only a hand full of Dominant men control our destiny and deny us our natural gift of Creation. I don't know. Maybe we should be ashamed.Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #38 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 13:52:47 PT Had Enough I know that we are in a real mess and I also know if a person is afraid they should move to somewhere safer. I read there are places in Iraq that are fine and not caught up in the war. We need to think about how to deal with the direction we are going as individuals. I believe that we should have a good supply of food and water. We shouldn't feel that we will always have utilities and prepare for that too. I am not a reactive person but a person that wants to be ready if anything happens. The prices on generators are coming down and that will be something we purchase in time. Don't worry but be prepared is how I think. [ Post Comment ] Comment #37 posted by Had Enough on October 07, 2007 at 13:39:01 PT FoM If you do choose to see it you will not regret it at all. I’m sure it will solidify many thoughts about things that you already knew.This is your call to make, it’s not mine, or others here in this forum, and I do not wish to force stuff on other people.But I do value the opportunity that arrives to share information, after all that’s how we learn. [ Post Comment ] Comment #36 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 13:20:39 PT Had Enough I'll ask Stick if he wants to see it and then we will order it. [ Post Comment ] Comment #35 posted by Had Enough on October 07, 2007 at 13:05:59 PT Start the Movie FoM you wrote:I would never have voted for Bush because he is a Republican and they are controlled by the religious right so I won't consider any of them. I am glad when a presidential candidate talks about their faith but I don't like when they make their own personal religious belief a reason to make a law.*****The leaders use religion as a tool when you hear them talk about religion. It automatically gets the attention of the majority of the masses. They know that, and abuse it.Leaders control religions and religions control politics. They work hand in hand for one soul purpose. That purpose is to collect money, spoon feed, and control the masses.And I might add, “They are doing a pretty good job at it.”*****About the movie.There is a lot of info there.You should not fear it. If you liked the Michael Moore flicks, (which I have not seen yet but will in time) it seems to me you would like this one too. [ Post Comment ] Comment #34 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 12:48:07 PT Toker00 I would never have voted for Bush because he is a Republican and they are controlled by the religious right so I won't consider any of them. I am glad when a presidential candidate talks about their faith but I don't like when they make their own personal religious belief a reason to make a law. [ Post Comment ] Comment #33 posted by Toker00 on October 07, 2007 at 12:43:06 PT FoM You are right. Fear DID make people vote for Bush. Fear is also making people run from Bush now that the real fear has been exposed by the Truth. Would you vote for Bush now, or would so many others? No. Why? We faced the REAL fear. That of Tyranny. We faced the Truth about our leaders. They are thoroughly corrupt. Now we don't fear the terrorists, we fear the rightful enemy, our Masters of Deception and Evil. Fear is good in that it creates the very thing necessary to defeat what causes it. Courage. You might say Fear is self-defeating. You might even say we discover courage by facing our fears.It's OK to be afraid. It's ok to stop seeking the Truth long enough to understand the Truth you have found. When you look for it again, you will be braver because you are taking the time to now digest what you have just recently learned. You won't be able to not think about it. You have sought the Truth, you have it, now it is up to you to understand it. Take your time.Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #32 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 12:41:46 PT Had Enough and Toker00 I am very happy with the Democrats that are running so they aren't a worry to me. I don't like Clinton but I like the rest and I am hoping that she doesn't win. Many people don't like her so I haven't given up hope.Toker00 I'm not afraid and I realize that the world could go poof today and it wouldn't surprise me so I live each day as though it could be my last and that makes for good feelings not fearful ones. [ Post Comment ] Comment #31 posted by Had Enough on October 07, 2007 at 12:35:14 PT No Fear FoMHear what Toker is saying to you.You have nothing to fear by seeing that movie.You are very much stronger than you realize. And that’s cool with me…:) [ Post Comment ] Comment #30 posted by Toker00 on October 07, 2007 at 12:28:17 PT FoM You should be afraid. Not of what these people are trying to tell you, but of what the people you are going to vote for in the next election are not telling you. Fear is like Truth. You can either Run from it or Face it. Once Fear is faced, courage takes it's place. Once the Truth is faced, it turns into determination to make change. Courage and Change. The courage to change. It starts with Self. You are braver than you know.Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #29 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 11:57:37 PT Toker00 I had a little time and read more about this movie and it seems like I wouldn't enjoy the movie because of what they talk about. Fear is not something I seek out and it would make me feel scared and that is counter productive to my way of thinking for me only.Fear is a control mechansim so when I see people trying to make me afraid I don't listen. Fear made people vote for Bush. [ Post Comment ] Comment #28 posted by Toker00 on October 07, 2007 at 11:51:43 PT Ordered the DVD. If we are what we believe, and we believe something that isn't based on facts, then we are living a lie, like it or not. These God and Christ beliefs were established thousands of years ago. None of them were based on technical facts, only on speculation of the ruling classes and just what they could get their slaves or citizens to believe out of fear. We are not meant to know everything, just what we need to continue with a balanced relationship between ourselves and that which Created us. Those who want to know everything, not for the sake of having this knowledge but for the sake of using this knowledge to form the world according to limited selfish ideologies and secret societies, are Evil. That would not be us. I don't think we, here, seek knowledge for any other reason than to know, and to use this knowledge to correct the obvious imbalance these bastardized Human Beings have created with the Divine Universe. Would Humanity have survived this long without some of the knowledge being turned into helpful medicines, tools, or other things to help us Love each other and the Creator more efficiently? No. That is what knowledge was created for. When this knowledge, however small or great, is used to accumulate power to falsely rule over Humanity with Deception and Division, then it must be said to reside in the hands of Evil Human beings, for knowledge alone is not capable of enslaving Humanity, only the people who use it to limit the Freedoms and Growth of the Natural Human Being are capable of it. (evil) It bothers me that evil is live spelled backwards. The Sun gives life and light. Blackwater gives death and darkness. Which is evil? The sun or the son? That big ole ball of fire in the sky is intimidating, but it gives life to the most fragile beings on the planet, as well as us. Blackwater gives death to the fragile and innocent lives of Iragi Human Beings in return for useless paper money which is used to continue this madness that is Evil.We have lost control through Deceit and Deception. The only way to regain it is to seek and spread the Truth. They hate that. We love it. Who is evil?Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #27 posted by whig on October 07, 2007 at 10:19:44 PT Had Enough Zeitgeist is speculative in parts, the source material for the very ancient times is sparse and open to many interpretations, some of the facts they stated have been questioned. I just want to clarify, I am not arguing with their basic point or the fact that similarities exist, but they are not necessarily the authoritative source on history.I view this as a fractal, self-similarity at all levels, we are all God and we are all Christ and we are all Buddha and we are all One. [ Post Comment ] Comment #26 posted by Had Enough on October 07, 2007 at 10:03:58 PT The Movie Zeitgeist was created as a non-profit filmiac expression to inspire people to start looking at the world from a more critical perspective and to understand that very often things are not what the population at large think they are. The information in Zeitgeist was established over a year long period of research and the current Source page on this site lists the basic sources used / referenced. Soon, an Interactive Transcript will be online with detailed footnotes and links so exact sources and further research can be relayed.Now, it's important to point out that there is a tendency to simply disbelieve things that are counter to our understanding, without the necessary research performed. For example, some information contained in Part 1 and Part 3, specifically, is not obtained by simple keyword searches on the Internet. You have to dig deeper. For instance, very often people who look up "Horus" or "The Federal Reserve" on the Internet draw their conclusions from very general or biased sources. Online encyclopedias or text book Encyclopedias often do not contain the information contained in Zeitgeist. However, if one takes the time to read the sources provided, they will find that what is being presented is based on documented evidence. Any corrections, clarifications & further points regarding the film are found on the Clarifications page.That being said, It is my hope that people will not take what is said in the film as the truth, but find out for themselves, for truth is not told, it is realized. Thank Youfound here…http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/statement.htm [ Post Comment ] Comment #25 posted by FoM on October 07, 2007 at 08:18:03 PT Had Enough Thank you. I will order a copy. I'm curious now. [ Post Comment ] Comment #24 posted by Had Enough on October 07, 2007 at 08:13:21 PT You can download it too You can download it tooTo Download *Torrent File* : Click above Icon and select "Save to Disk" or "Open with Bittorent"( if / when you have the program installed).Found here…http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/dloads.htm [ Post Comment ] Comment #23 posted by Had Enough on October 07, 2007 at 08:08:24 PT zeitgeist Full Resolution, DVDs are available.These are Factory Pressed Discs (Not DVD-Rs) and are compatible with all DVD players.The cost is as low as possible so that many of these discs can get into circulation. Each DVD will come in a simple white sleeve.$5.00 for each DVD and $2.00 to ship within the USA ($7.00) Shipping outside the US is $3.50 per disc. ($8.50)[ For every 5 ordered, a free disc is included to offset the flat rate shipping & handling per disc. In other words, if 10 are ordered, you will get 12, ect. ]Paypal only accepted at this time.Please allow 5 -14 days for delivery in the USA ; 8 -20 days for International.Also, You will not receive a confirmation from zeitgeistmovie.com. Your Paypal receipt is your confirmation.found here...http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/dvdorder.htm [ Post Comment ] Comment #22 posted by FoM on October 06, 2007 at 20:43:08 PT nuevo mexican I can't download practically anything because of HughesNet's FAP Policy. From 3 am to 6 am I can download as much as I want but I can't stay up that late anymore. Thanks for explaining what it is about. It sounds interesting. [ Post Comment ] Comment #21 posted by nuevo mexican on October 06, 2007 at 19:58:45 PT Can you download it to a DVD FOM?? It's not for sale, so downloading it for free is the only way to watch it.Maybe Richard could make you a copy, Zeitgeist explains Religion, Astrology, and the Bible, (and everything else in Part 2 and Part 3) in a way that makes this ancient knowledge and how it has been manipulated, simple and easy to understand.It also made perfect sense to my 87 year old Mom, and the two 78 year olds' I watched it with, and they don't puff, though they spend most of their time with my brother, who is more 'new age/old age' than I. I'm inspired by Zeitgeist to someday pick up where it left off on the Stars, to make a film-ocumentary similar to this, cutting edge graphics, coupled with age-old ancient wisdom/information.What a great way of putting together relevant, though rarely and little discussed information, with visuals that mesmerize and inform.It's time to make it easy for everyone that chooses to understand the true nature of the Uni-verse, and look within for guidance, as opposed to living in a fear-coded, bushian reality, where hopelessness, idiocy, big brother, a police state, and death-worship reign supreme.And guidance that comes from George Bush and Bill O'Really and Fox/CNN/MSNBC.Here's to the second Age of Enlightenment! [ Post Comment ] Comment #20 posted by FoM on October 06, 2007 at 19:08:52 PT Toker00 Since I have bandwidth limitations can this movie be purchased? [ Post Comment ] Comment #19 posted by Toker00 on October 06, 2007 at 18:48:12 PT Had Enough. Your welcome. I'm glad your people got to see it, too. It is a significant Story. Amazing. Thanks for watching it all the way. The inspiration is well placed, at the end. Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #18 posted by Had Enough on October 06, 2007 at 13:48:54 PT Corporate Greed, Intellectual Property Laws and... the Destruction of Human CivilizationDid you know that if you have children you are an international criminal? You have violated intellectual property laws by infringing on the copyrights of companies that have been granted patents on the human genome. You have replicated that gene sequence by having children without the permission of the owners of those gene sequences. As bizarre as it sounds, it's absolutely true: having children is a violation of patent law. This has come about because those at the U.S. Patent Office seem to have lost their collective minds. They have allowed companies and individuals to gain ownership of intellectual property that should never have been granted to a private organization or individual. Some things belong to nature -- like the gene sequence of a human being. Man didn't create it. There's no Einstein who created the human gene sequence, put together some DNA and made human beings. People are not an invention; they are a creation.Intellectual property, and patents in particular, are intended to cover inventions; things that we were the first to create, not something we stumbled across because we have the right equipment to detect them in the natural world. Clearly, genes are already in existence. We did not invent them; nature did. And yet, people and organizations have been granted patents on seeds from nature.No patents on seedsThose of you familiar with the subject know I'm talking about basmati rice, a type of rice native to India. It has been harvested for centuries throughout India and Southeast Asia. But a few years ago, a U.S. company filed for a patent on basmati rice and the U.S. Patent Office said, "Sure enough, you own it." That company then proceeded to try to shut down the harvesting and farming of basmati rice in India. They said, in effect, "All you farmers out there? You owe us a royalty now. We own the patent on this seed." Luckily, the Indian government intervened and thwarted the patent by having the rice listed under the European Commission's regulations that protect regional foods. But the fact that the patent was issued at all illustrates how intellectual property has spiraled out of control in the United States and other countries. If you wonder why companies are granted patents for the human gene sequence or for seeds, here's the reason: It's because corporations are in charge, and they run governments. Who do you think runs the Food and Drug Administration? It's the drug companies. Who do you think runs the U.S. Department of Agriculture? It's the farming, beef and the dairy industries.Take a look at every single decision the USDA, the FDA, and various government departments have made: they benefit big business. It's all about not just protecting business, but helping big business become more profitable.The arrogance of modern manYou know what it tells me when humanity tries to take credit and ownership of things from nature? That mankind thinks it's smarter than nature; that men think they are gods who own nature and feel they can exploit nature for any purpose they desire. This is the attitude of a majority of the human population today, and certainly it is the attitude of those who are in power, like those who run big corporations and governments. They say, "Nature is there for us to exploit." This is reflected in the intellectual property laws today, which say, in effect, that we own nature and that anything we happen to stumble across is from that point forward our "property."It is this attitude that allows people to go out and plunder the planet; strip the planet of its minerals, raw materials and clean water, then dump polluted water back in to the rivers, streams and oceans; to use clean air and return only toxic waste, jet fuel exhaust, car exhaust and coal plant exhaust into the atmosphere. Corporations say, "This piece of paper from the U.S. Patent Office says I own this gene sequence, this seed, this piece of land." It's amazing.Native Americans had it right when they laughed at the white man who said, "We'll trade you these beads for Manhattan Island." The Native Americans thought, "Nobody owns Manhattan Island, nobody owns the land, nobody owns the planet. If you want to give us these beads in order to think you own a piece of land, go for it." They didn't know the white man was serious. White man said, "Okay, now we're going to build a fence and defend ourselves against you all the way to the other coast. Then we're going to set up these tiny reservations and put you on them, and allow you to call them your homeland."Nature will find balanceOur modern world -- our so-called technologically advanced world -- is so advanced that we think we own the trees, rivers, streams, oceans, the lands, the seeds and the gene sequences. But we're in for a big surprise here, because Mother Nature has a way of reminding people they are not in control, a way of correcting the imbalances. We've been exploiting Mother Nature in a systematic, aggressive way for a couple of hundred years. We've already had a huge, destructive, negative impact on the planet in this short time.The planet is going to rebalance itself one way or another. We are the guests here, and if we don't remember that, Mother Nature will remind us of it. It will most likely happen in a gentle, nudging way -- like global climate change, infectious diseases, global pandemics and food supply shortages. Maybe there will be other little reminders, like global water shortages, typhoons, earthquakes and changes in weather patterns that affect the food supply. It will likely be these types of things that kill a lot of human beings. Not only is this is going to keep happening, but I think it's going to accelerate. We as human beings are creating the conditions that will cause these devastating events.more… http://www.newstarget.com:80/022096.html [ Post Comment ] Comment #17 posted by Had Enough on October 06, 2007 at 12:49:49 PT Zeitgeist Movie There is a lot of info in there about a lot of things museman mentions. A lot. Especially but definitely not limited to the part about the winter solstice, and solar cross. He explained that here one time. What he says about society, and the scriptures in general sometimes with good detail, is covered also.museman – special request.If you can find the time, watch the movie and tell us what you think.Anybody else’s comments would be welcomed as well.The beginning of it kind makes you wonder what you are watching and you might have the urge to shut it down. Don’t do that, let it play, about 20 minutes into it starts getting your attention, another 20 minutes or so later it gets real interesting, and the rest, well see for your self.It also has reference to JFK, John Lennon, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and others.http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/2hrs [ Post Comment ] Comment #16 posted by TroutMask on October 06, 2007 at 08:28:02 PT Safer YES on 100 Benefit today in Denver YES on 100 Benefit Concert today in DenverWhite House Lounge, 2936 Fox St. DenverRead about Safer and Initiative 100 here:http://saferdenver.saferchoice.org/ [ Post Comment ] Comment #15 posted by goneposthole on October 06, 2007 at 07:42:54 PT how to fight asset forfeiture give up ownership. Don't own anything. Lease your car. Carry no cash. Have money in the bank of a trusted relative.Don't own a single thing. Never.In today's Murka, ownership is Verboten.It has come to that. Did you know that RFID tags have been compromised? You can be 75 feet away from a tracking device, but it will read that you are 200 miles away.RFID's compromised:http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2007/08/epassportDon't fight the government. Not a finger need be lifted.It has already been hacked by the likes of Gnewt Gingrinch, and other stupid 'Republicans' who haven't a clue.They're dead in the water.It ain't 1984 anymore. [ Post Comment ] Comment #14 posted by Sinsemilla Jones on October 06, 2007 at 07:35:42 PT f4f #2 - Wasn't that a country song? Had the refrain...Pot for my men and Hemp for my horses...well, maybe that was some kinda parallel universe I skipped through somewhere... [ Post Comment ] Comment #13 posted by Sinsemilla Jones on October 06, 2007 at 07:26:31 PT What is asset forfeiture, Alex? How to make the most corrupting laws imaginable even more corrupting. [ Post Comment ] Comment #12 posted by Sinsemilla Jones on October 06, 2007 at 07:21:13 PT We should be able to seize the DEA & ONDCP I think it would be very easy to prove with a preponderance of the evidence that the marijuana laws are a load of crap. [ Post Comment ] Comment #11 posted by Had Enough on October 06, 2007 at 07:16:27 PT Time Spirit/Ghost Time Spirit/GhostRe:#8Here is the link for all to see, if they care to.A few minutes into it I was ready to shut it off and move on. After a few more minutes you couldn’t keep me away from it. It caught the attention of everyone here and then some.I had a lot of stuff to do that morning. When I clicked on the link I figured that I would get a preview of it then watch it later. Well I watched the whole thing. Didn’t get my stuff done until later.There is a good man who keeps coming around. He is of Jehovah Witness, and he is trying real hard to save my soul. He has been coming around for quite a while. One time I gave him Neil Young’s Living With War CD. I’ve heard him mention the garden to me since. I’ve talked to him about things that are in the movie, however I’m not as good at communications as I would like to be. After I saw that movie I thought the next time he comes around I will show it too him. It’s all neatly packaged in one movie.As we are ushering in the “The New Age of Aquarius” we will see change, one way or another. The forces are in motion and cannot be stopped. However these forces can still be steered, which way will they be guided??? Can mankind save its’ self???Thanks for that link Toker…http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ [ Post Comment ] Comment #10 posted by mayan on October 06, 2007 at 06:10:16 PT October 15-20 US to test response to massive dirty bomb attack: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071004/ts_alt_afp/usattacksecurityRemember the drills on 9/11? 7/7?Let's hope the upcoming drills don't go "live". [ Post Comment ] Comment #9 posted by nuevo mexican on October 06, 2007 at 01:12:06 PT Great posts Can we pass a law forbiding the U.S.. from becoming an 'official' police state now?The Corporations will fight it, and get more exposed, like bush with the Health Insurance for kids veto.This week, all of the Democratic Candidates are being interviewed or given FREE air-time on www.airamericaradio.com all week long! Dennis Kucinich wins the weekly straw poll on Thom Hartman, and has for months. And he reports it!Perhaps, As Global Warming creates more disaster capitalism for the NeoCons,, the temporary upside, if there is one, is the corporate facists' have completely blown their cover, as previous posts' have nicely documented.It seems the dark forces are just waiting for word from cheney/bush world, and we will be like Myanmar/Burma.Did anyone hear the Phoenix Police removed Carol Gothbaums' throat, brain and heart before returning her body for the SECOND autopsy, as the first one was 'unconclusive.Unbelievably self-incriminating, rude, unnecessary and gruesome, and totally disrespectful of the body, the person, her husband and kids, and family, and all who will be attending a mass ceremony I'm sure. She deserves something all out.This was so disgusting.This is the most heartbreaking story I can imagine for any family, person, traveler, or one suffering from the effects of alcohol.There are many heartless 'muricans who fully support the police in this case, though surprisingly MANY prominent forensic experts on handcuffs and police history are not buying the lie.The family says they'll wait til the results are in, and they know what they are up against.Typical experience for intended and unintended victims of the War on Drugs,and Iraqis', soon to be Iranians, though today, just average people being abused is the new 'norm'. This is on the heels on taser guy, (where is he?) and tonight a 15 year old girl was on CNN being maced and assaulted, glad folks here see that it's off the meter.I guess we'll all just go along and get along, like the bystanders in the video watch the badged-assaulters taking her down.Though on a brighter note, the DAWN looks like its' gonna be VERY bright based on how dark the age we live in now is.Have we outdone the 'dark ages' yet in our torture, fear and police/911 mentality? It seems we have, as Carol Gothbaum could've been any one of millions of average stressed-out by bushworld, anyone here think they'd be upset if they missed their flight due to long lines for BS security measures, hile on the way to Re-hab, which shouldn't be a big deal, but NOOOO, bushgoons attack any and all, no questions asked, no considerations made.1984 with the latest Orwellian spin.Everyone here knows if she were to have usee Cannabis instead of booze, to treat her depression, she wouldn't have found herself at the mercy of the Phoenix Security State Apparatus. As she was a mother of three in New York, using Cannabis without the threat of losing your kids a difficult reality to overcome in todays' pro-alcohol, pro-snitch world.Gotbaum Family Seeks Withheld Organs For 2nd Autopsy>From the article below:"They didn't give us the complete body," complained Phoenix lawyer Michael Manning, who represents Gotbaum's husband, Noah. "They wouldn't give us the neck, the brain and the heart."Manning said the Medical Examiner's Office offered no explanation for keeping the organs, other than to say, "We're too busy" to provide them. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.true-crime/browse_ thread/thread/893098ad5bf45619/e06999115cbe11b2 [ Post Comment ] Comment #8 posted by Toker00 on October 05, 2007 at 21:34:30 PT Hope You can see clearly now, the rain is gone. The men behind the curtain are being exposed. Your post was felt way over here and your disgust shared by many of us. I suspect far more of us here at cnews are educated about these traitors than the average American citizen. We do stand above most in knowing what we shouldn't know. But guess what? Patriotism is almost cheap now. So many people are realizing just how "had" we have been and are being everyday we allow this farce of "Freedom" to continue. We have to dissolve the So-Called Federal Reserve and base our future on reality, not false speculation and private manipulation of our Government's (OUR) money. Anything less and we leave them with the same ability they started out with and have used to lasso our Country from it's rightful owners and benefactors, WE THE GOD DAMNED PEOPLE, GOD DAMN IT! : ) That's NOT profanity. That's pure SWEARIN'! lol!I would like to ask all those who started watching the zeitgeist movie and stopped before the Christianity and Astrology part, to have patience and watch the entire thing. The link was posted the second time by Had Enough and I won't post it again because my desire is not to force it on you but to engage you in conversation about it, if it is not objectionable.They've taken 'er from us, and we must take 'er back, Hope. Simple as that. And this time, we REALLY have to keep 'er. The future of us depends on it.Toke. [ Post Comment ] Comment #7 posted by The GCW on October 05, 2007 at 21:34:12 PT The Highroad / the lowroad U.S. corporations support Chinese suppression by Jim HightowerAmerica stands for freedom, right? George W even claims that his military occupation of Iraq is about exporting freedom throughout the world.Yet, in China, U.S. high-tech corporations and investment bankers are enthusiastically exporting the very opposite of freedom: suppression. They are teaming up with the thuggish dictators in Beijing to establish an electronic police state there. U.S. firms are providing financing and surveillance technology to allow the regime to track, monitor and tightly control the Chinese people — a “market” expected to top $43 billion.In the city of Shenzhen alone, 20,000 police-surveillance cameras are being installed, guided by advanced computer software with face-recognition and behavior-detection technologies. The program is being implemented by China Public Security Technology. It’s a Chinese company, but it’s incorporated in Florida, getting financial backing from such U.S. investment funds as Pinnacle, Roth Capital and Oppenheimer.Cont.October 4 - 10, 2007http://www.boulderweekly.com/?site_id=619&id_sub=10394&page_id=10394&pagenum=1 [ Post Comment ] Comment #6 posted by Hope on October 05, 2007 at 18:30:26 PT Asset Forfeiture was one of the early signs that America became what our forefathers so despised about the Great Britain. We became that which they had hated. They hated it bad enough to revolt against that despised, greedy, oppressive, and overbearing governing. Many died and many suffered so that we could be free from such an oppressive government. Now the asses in our legislatures and governments at every level have seceded all our freedom from such crap to their greed and sheer arrogance. Greed! That's all it is. We are not what we were. Our governments are greedy and oppressive. All those who enabled the loss of our freedom from search and siezure and pure, true, specialness as sons and daughters of the American Revolution should be tried for treason. They are truly traitors and the lowest of the low. They destroyed something so beautiful...out of greed and arrogance. They are truly traitors to the original blessed United States of America. They deserve to be "dethroned", thoroughly despised, and heavily, harshly, and publicly denounced as quickly as possible. They destroyed something so beautiful.Would that our grandfathers of that time, the American Revolution against Great Britain, could somehow lay their hands on every one of the traitors that brought this blight of government search and seizure upon the free men and women of this country, conceived in liberty and love of freedom for oppression.Dare I damn them? They deserve it. May God bring us patriots that will restore the United States of America to the blessed place that it was conceived to be.I can't curse them to the damnation they deserve. I won't. I will be merciful, should I have to judge them... but how do they deserve it? Dare they plead ignorance? Every school child in this country was once tutored in the blessings our forefathers sought to bestow on us. It seems ignorance would be a mighty far reach. They just decided out of greed and arrogance to destroy something precious... and they did.I, and many others, want back that gift our forefathers suffered so to procure for all of us! [ Post Comment ] Comment #5 posted by mayan on October 05, 2007 at 18:14:39 PT Forfeiture It's time for the terrorists in government to forfeit the reins of power. Got tar & feathers?THE WAY OUT...New 9/11 Truth Resource! "Who is? Archives": http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20071004205534230 [ Post Comment ] Comment #4 posted by FoM on October 05, 2007 at 16:54:16 PT fight_4_freedom We are thinking about going to this years Quarter Horse Congress. It is an amazing event. They have had as many as 8,000 horses there and the exhibition hall has all kinds of things to buy for horses and riders. Maybe hemp products will show up there this year. They have top breeding stallions in what is called Stallion Avenue and you can book your mare if you want. Pictures from The Quarter Horse Congress: http://tinyurl.com/2n4u5yhttp://www.oqha.com/congress/congresshome.htm [ Post Comment ] Comment #3 posted by FoM on October 05, 2007 at 16:23:56 PT fight_4_freedom I did have horses but I don't anymore but thank you for the information. [ Post Comment ] Comment #2 posted by fight_4_freedom on October 05, 2007 at 15:02:27 PT: fom, you have horses right? Or atleast I thought you did. Even if you don't, heres some interesting information you might like to see. I got this bulletin off of myspace.Hemp for Horses By Jodie AtterburyThe market for hemp products has soared in the past ten years due to the increasingly large amount of information regarding its positive effects on health and well being. On top of that, designers all over the world are jumping on the hemp bandwagon by creating clothing, furniture, textiles and other designer items out of this amazing plant. The market is flooded with body care items such as lotions, facial products and shampoos that all contain hemp seed oil. So, isn’t it time that the equine community jump on and reap the benefits of this most beneficial plant?How can the hemp plant benefit my horse? You may ask…Well, to start off, hemp is the richest source of EFAs (essential fatty acids) in the plant kingdom. EFAs are not created in the body, so therefore must be added to the diet. EFAs promote cellular growth, healthy skin and eyes, immune response and disease prevention as well as containing Linoleic Acid (LA) and Alpha Linoleic Acid (ALA) more commonly referred to as Omega 3’s and Omega 6’s. Both LA and ALA work to detoxify the body’s systems by expelling toxins through the skin, liver and kidneys.*Nutrition*Hemp is beneficial to our equine friends in many ways:*Joint Function *Cardiovascular Health *Healthy Skin, Coat, Manes & Tails and Eyes – Omega 3’s for Eye Health and Omega 6’s for Healthy Hair and Skin *Digestive Health *Reduced Inflammation – Both Active and Non-Active *Insulin Resistance *Promotes Calmness and Reduces Nervousness *Turns Hard keepers into Easy keepers *Prevents Tie Up *Builds Immune System Response•The EFAs in hemp promote cell membrane health which enables cells to obtain optimum nutrition and expel harmful waste products from the body. Its anti-inflammatory properties are crucial when dealing with horses that are suffering from laminitis or ringbone.•Hemp is more easily digested then commonly used flax…also, horse’s fed flax daily can build up a resistance to it, but with hemp they cannot.•The addition of hemp to your horse’s diet will help with the absorption of the other supplements that your horse is fed.*Bedding*Hemp has been used in the United Kingdom for quite some time with much success, but is only used minimally in the U.S.A due to the difficulty with finding a supplier. The benefits are enormous when it comes to using hemp bedding over more traditional methods such as straw or wood shavings:* Fully Sustainable and Recyclable – Fast And Easy To Grow (Means Less Deforestation!) * Will Compost In A Manure Pile In A Matter of A Few Months As Opposed To Straw and Shavings * More Absorbent – Keeps Moisture Away From Animals, Which Means Less Hoof and Coat Issues * Low Odor – Low Dust – Reduces The Amount Of Ammonia In The Air – Especially Good For Horses With Respiratory Issues. * On Average Only ½ to 1 Bale Of Hemp Bedding Is Needed Every 10 Days – WOW! * Unbleached / No Added ChemicalsDig This….If only 10% of Thoroughbred owners in the United States bedded their stalls with hemp bedding, it would create a market for 55,000 tons of hemp per year in Kentucky alone! That’s 300,000 tons per year in the entire country!!! And we are only talking about TEN PERCENT OF THOROUGHBRED OWNERS PEOPLE!!!Looking For Hemp Bedding? Check out hempline.com*Equine Couture*If your horses are like mine, they have more “clothes” at much higher prices than you do! There is a huge market out there for blankets, sheets, saddle pads, wraps, etc. You have most likely also found that horse laundry is a huge task in which you deal with moldy, smelly horse clothes that tend to fall apart quickly when washed. Hemp fibers have been found to be incredibly durable and useful when it comes to items that need to stand up to hard use as well as the test of time. On top of this, hemp resists UV rays, mold and mildew! Perfect!Looking For Hemp Blankets and Saddle Pads? Well Good Luck! No Seriously, I Have Yet To Find A Dealer….So, If You Have Any Leads, Please Do Let Me Know! If Not, You Better Get Your Sewing Machines Out!*Topical*Besides being used for internal nutrition, the hemp plant produces a “cure all” oil that does wonders for treating skin conditions such as rain rot, “scratches”, blanket rub and general itchy skin. Hemp seed oil makes excellent hoof oil and has been known to help restore shelly, cracked, weak hooves faster than any other application. When added to soaps and shampoos, hemp seed oil acts as an antimicrobial agent.This is Great Information! How Do I Sign My Horse Up?!?!In addition to a proper diet of quality hay and feeds, hemp can be in two forms – as 100% milled plant (a powder like substance) or in the form of hemp seed oil. Below are average maintenance doses for each as well as an approximated cost per day:100% Milled Hemp (Powder) Dose Per Day = 1 oz. Cost Per Day = $1.50100% Hemp Seed Oil Dose Per Day = 4 oz. Cost Per Day = $2.50It is important to choose organic, cold pressed oils and non-sterilized seeds. Please also note that hemp seed oils should be stored in the refrigerator in opaque bottles.Check out hempforhorses.com and shop around for hemp seed oil which can be found through some equine supplement companies (but tends to be pricier) or at your local health food store. I also love mountainroseherbs.com for organic oils and herbs (yes, they have hemp seed oil that is certified organic, cold pressed and unrefined)I hope you have found this information valuable and it opens new doors for both you and your equine best friends! : ) [ Post Comment ] Comment #1 posted by FoM on October 05, 2007 at 11:38:09 PT MPP I didn't see them in the article until I had already posted it. Here it is. http://www.mpp.org/ [ Post Comment ] Post Comment