cannabisnews.com: Medical Marijuana From the Patient’s Point of View
Medical Marijuana From the Patient’s Point of View
Posted by CN Staff on July 01, 2006 at 07:46:46 PT
By Kenneth Michael White
Source: Frontiers of Freedom
Washington, DC -- The House of Representatives recently voted down an amendment to a spending bill that would have prevented the Justice Department from spending Federal tax dollars on medical marijuana investigations and enforcement actions in those States that have decriminalized marijuana for medical use. From the perspective of a person with a serious illness whose doctor has recommended the medical use of cannabis, the congressional vote was an unfortunate 259 to 163 against common sense.
Of course, common sense is not always common (especially in Washington, D.C.). In this sense, the congressional vote against medical marijuana is nothing new. For example, the 75th Congress started the trend of ignoring reality when it comes to medical marijuana by passing The Marihuana Tax Act of 1937. Over the objection of the American Medical Association, the 75th Congress allowed prejudice (directed primarily towards Spanish-speaking persons in the Southwest) to trump intelligence. America has paid dearly for this mistake, both in terms of wasted tax dollars spent punishing unpopular people and the inevitable loss of liberty associated with asking the government to protect people from themselves.The 259 members of the 109th Congress who failed to vote in favor of correcting a mistake of 69-years and counting have given de-facto approval to the practice of punishing sick and dying people. Granted, the Drug Enforcement Administration has promised the United States Supreme Court that it does not target individual medical marijuana patients, but the agency nevertheless opposes the end of medical marijuana prohibition and therefore desires to, at least, threaten legitimate medical marijuana patients with criminal sanction. But, why? Why is it so hard to accept the private medical use of marijuana?Are people upset with the medical use of marijuana because they believe it looks like lawlessness? Would such people change their view about medical marijuana if they knew that the American Medical Association once considered the plant to be medicine? If they knew that the Chinese have been using the plant as medicine for thousands of years? If they had a family member who needed marijuana to ease the symptoms associated with cancer, AIDS, and/or chronic pain?Are people upset with the medical use of marijuana because they believe that some medical marijuana patients do not “look” sick? Well, should Congress order doctors to only prescribe medicine on the basis of who “looks” sick to the average person with no medical background or training? What, exactly, is a cancer patient supposed to look like anyway? How about an AIDS patient? An MS patient? Glaucoma? Arthritis? Is it even possible or desirable to judge by a glance which person deserves a disabled parking permit and which person does not?Are people upset with the medical use of marijuana because they think that marijuana is addictive? Would such people change their view about medical marijuana if they knew that the supervised use of pain medication is not the equivalent of the unsupervised abuse of pain medication? If not, then should Congress prevent doctors from recommending the use of all medicines that could be addictive or could be abused? Why should people be deprived of useful medicine on the basis that certain individuals cannot be trusted with such medicine? Isn’t it simply cruel to threaten to punish people with incarceration for privately following their doctor’s advice?Are people upset with the medical use of marijuana because they think that marijuana is dangerous? Would such people change their view about medical marijuana if they knew that no one in recorded human history has ever died from overdosing on marijuana? Alcohol is far more dangerous than marijuana, so should we re-prohibit alcohol and bring back organized crime figures like Al Capone? If not, then why should we keep medical marijuana prohibition in place when it helps foster a black market that provides ready funding to international terrorists? Is it possible that the war on drugs is more dangerous than the medical use of marijuana? Isn’t it the current system of drug regulation that subjects our children to dangerous streets and dangerous temptations? Has Coors Brewing Company ever sponsored a drive-by shooting or otherwise used violence to profit from the sale of beer? Has a legitimate medical marijuana patient’s use of marijuana ever caused measurable harm to society?According to the polls there is only 20% of the American population that does not favor medical marijuana. That means a whopping 80% of the country favors making marijuana available for doctors to prescribe to patients without government interference. Despite the fact that both federalism and conservatism seem to call for letting States enact medical marijuana laws and keeping government out of people’s private lives, a majority-of-the-majority in the Republican Party refuses to recognize any comity or restraint, and the Democratic Party is sometimes too afraid to stand up for what is often viewed as a “hippie” drug. The result is an out-of-touch Congress that criminalizes the sick and dying.Oh well, maybe next year common sense will, finally, prevail in Congress again. In the meantime, people who need medical marijuana to survive are forced to go on living with the stigma of being a violator of an unjust law, which is still some kind of law after all, and which, for conscientious citizens, does not feel good to disobey. The good news is that medical marijuana patients are on the side of truth; however, the bad news is that they have to beg Congress to catch up with them for at least one more year.Kenneth Michael White is an attorney and the author of “The Beginning of Today: The Marihuana Tax Act of 1937” and “Buck” (both by PublishAmerica 2004). Source: Frontiers of Freedom (VA)Author: Kenneth Michael White Published: July 01, 2006Copyright: 2006 Frontiers of Freedom Contact: opeds opeds.com Website: http://www.ff.org/Related Articles: Drug Policy Reform Activists Suffer Defeathttp://cannabisnews.com/news/thread21952.shtmlHouse OKs Medical Pot Prosecutionshttp://cannabisnews.com/news/thread21951.shtmlCAGW Report Calls Drug Policies a Wastehttp://cannabisnews.com/news/thread21943.shtml
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Comment #189 posted by Patrick on July 05, 2006 at 21:40:49 PT
whig
I concur that millions or billions could think as we do regarding cannabis. So much so that I fully believe it is a minority of us that prohibit its use.I also agree that the majority of us who have prepared for battle and have the willingness to fight are motivated more by necessity than the desire to engage in war. I grew up in a military environment and there was a slogan at the gate to an airbase where I lived. I read it everyday for many years and it simply said “Peace through Strength.” Too young to understand what it meant at the time I later had a real life example of it courtesy of a teenage bully. I was never free from his little war waged on me the little nerd with glasses until the day I found the courage to calmy set my glasses on the roof of a nearby car and stand up for myself. His nose had the blood for a change and from then on I understood the slogan at the gate. So yes, some desire war and others like myself discover its necessity.
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Comment #188 posted by global_warming on July 05, 2006 at 10:01:53 PT
re: link from 179
http://www.essene.com/History/AncientHistoriansAndEssenes.htmlSound familiar? Philo's (first account) "They do not offer animal sacrifice, judging it more fitting to render their minds truly holy. They flee the cities and live in villages where clean air and clean social life abound. They either work in the fields or in crafts that countribute to peace. They do not hoard silver and gold and do not acquire great landholdings; procuring for themselves only what is necessary for life. Thus they live without goods and without property, not by missfortune, but out of preference. They do not make armaments of any kind. They do not keep slaves and detest slavery.
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Comment #187 posted by FoM on July 05, 2006 at 09:46:10 PT
afterburner
Now you have mail.
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Comment #186 posted by afterburner on July 05, 2006 at 09:38:14 PT
FoM
You have mail.
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Comment #185 posted by FoM on July 05, 2006 at 08:30:01 PT
Genthirdday
Thank you so much! I'm watching it now. I love it.
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Comment #184 posted by Genthirdday on July 05, 2006 at 07:06:43 PT
Late Night Music Americana
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..." Neil Young and other greats at Bob Dylan's 30th Anniversity concert. You Tube Talk Left
http://www.talkleft.com/
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Comment #183 posted by global_warming on July 05, 2006 at 06:33:57 PT
standoff in NJ
The state is shutting down, motor vehicle offices, race tracks, state court houses, even the casinos, the new governor is standing up to those drug war industry legislators, who knows, maybe the wasteful cost of the drug war on people is being scrutinized..
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Comment #182 posted by afterburner on July 05, 2006 at 06:06:13 PT
Toker00 #179
"The papal ban on cannabis medicines in the Holy Roman Empire in 1484" "This perverted prosecution-for-profit model, used almost exactly in the same way today by state and federal drug warriors - and just as self-righteously, was given to us at the insistence of president Ronald Reagan in 1984"--The Sociology Of Cannabis And World History
http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mj018.htmPapal ban: 1484!Property seizure for profit: 1984!500 years later! No wonder George Orwell chose 1984 as the title of his book about totalitarian governments! We thought we had survived 1984's prophesied catastrophe, but we only discovered how deeply the US Government had sunk its talons into the body politic in the years that followed.Thanks, Toker, and Happy Anniversary to you and the Mrs.
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Comment #181 posted by global_warming on July 05, 2006 at 05:12:37 PT
for all the people
But the angel said to them, "Don't be afraid, for look, I proclaim to you good news of great joy that will be for all the people:
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Comment #180 posted by afterburner on July 05, 2006 at 04:59:22 PT
Independence Day: The Morning After
"Proclaim Liberty throughout All the land unto All the Inhabitants Thereof." --Inscription on the Liberty Bell "Keep on Truckin'" and remember we're "Just Passing Through." --Mr. Natural by R. Crumb
Mr. Natural Images
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Comment #179 posted by Toker00 on July 04, 2006 at 19:47:30 PT
afterburner
I just wanted to bump this link up and thank you for posting it. http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mj018.htmThank you, afterburner.Toke.
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Comment #178 posted by FoM on July 04, 2006 at 19:26:10 PT
Toker00
It sounds like you had a great day. That's wonderful. We watched Macy's Fireworks display and it was really good. We are watching the Boston Pops now and Aerosmith is performing. It's been raining all day so we have just been enjoying the slow day.
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Comment #177 posted by Toker00 on July 04, 2006 at 19:06:34 PT
Thank you! My anniversary was/is great!
The sky cleared for a while, and I, yes, fired up the Char-broil, as always a custom in my family on the 4th. Took a trip up to a Houston Head Shop, picked up some Bob Marley incense, High Times, some underground newspapers, and a lighter. Bought my wife a necklace and earrings, (no, not at the head shop! :))and now we're enjoying all of this. Life can be so good, so simply, sometimes. And that Dutch apple pie I baked hit the spot. Now where's that lighter and incense?gw, thanks for understanding. The spirit witnesseth the spirit. whig, I only meant that you sound like someone whose parents invested a lot of time and effort in your education. Someone paid a lot of attention to detail with you, because your thoughts reflect that. Just admiring, not trying to cut myself short, or you. I blame myself for not completing my college education, and being raised and educated in the South, for the roughness around my edges. You are learning things at a far younger age than I have, not necessarily just things of knowledge, but you have developed an unusually deep wisdom at such a young age. Bravo, my brother!FoM, I went back and found my first post after being "enlightened" by links from some of your earlier C-newsers about the wicked ways of the world. It was such a profound shock to me, I still remember the intensity of that awakening. One poster said I had lost my cherry. It was when I discovered the satanic cult, Skull and Bones, and how many of our leaders were of this cult. I was a blind patriot up to that point. I knew there were bad people in my government, but to what extent, I had NO clue. This is what I posted over five years ago, when I had my eyes thrown open by the Truth:Comment #7 posted by Toker00 on February 13, 2001 at 18:23:31 PT
Subject: My heart is boken, my mind is blown..."And to think I agreed to defend this government with my life.I'm sending my Honorable Discharge back to the pentagon. It is no longer an honorable document. It is smeared with lies and deceit. It is smeared with the blood of my countrymen who died, unknowingly, for corporate fascism. Our government has become the very demon their bravery sought to defeat. With it, I will send every title of every book and every link to every site, that I know of, that exposes them for what they are. My patriotism has been castrated. My pride, incinerated. My heart broken, and my mind blown. No longer will I rise up in anger when I see terrorist attacks on this government. For their attacks, in my eyes, are justified.Forever more I will roam this beautiful country and gather the pieces of a shattered dream I would have once died for.
A dream that is now replaced with a nightmare. When I meet my Creator, I will show him the pieces and explain that this is what I defended in your name, Creator. Not what it has become.Peace. Legalize Cannabis, for it IS the tree of Life."I know now that terrorism has no place or justification anywhere on this earth, let alone this country. Did anyone else lose their "cherry" ONLINE? Wage peace on war. END CANNABIS PROHIBITION NOW!
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Comment #176 posted by FoM on July 04, 2006 at 14:29:15 PT
About The North Korean Test Missiles
All I thought of was this song.Eve of Destruction By Barry McGuirehttp://faculty.smu.edu/dsimon/Music/Guire%20-%20Eve%20of%20destruction.mp3
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Comment #175 posted by whig on July 04, 2006 at 13:54:30 PT
OT: First amendment, much?
http://tinyurl.com/oex5u
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Comment #174 posted by whig on July 04, 2006 at 13:30:09 PT
Toker00
Happy anniversary!Why do you say you are not as cultured as me? I don't think that's a fair assumption at all. I am the son of a lawyer and I use words with perhaps too much formality much of the time. But to be honest I don't think I communicate as clearly as I ought to much of the time. Lawyerly writing is intended to confuse as much as enlighten. So that is something I am unlearning.My writing is better when it just flows and it is not culture that influences that but consciousness. And I am no more conscious than are you. You have the same capacity to relate your thoughts and ideas and I read what you say and you are very wise. If we disagree as to some things, that is why we communicate rather than remaining in silence to one another.On the unknown and unknowable, there is that which we can see as through a glass, darkly. And that is all we can see, but it is enough that we can speak with authority as to what we do. And when we are confused that will cause us to retract that authority and say, I don't know.I hope this makes sense. This is not cultured, this is just me dumping thoughts.
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Comment #173 posted by lombar on July 04, 2006 at 13:13:08 PT
Levels of discernment.
Sometimes words can be used precisely to describe an object.A sense cognizes an object. The mind differentiates the object. Perception includes shape, color. A feeling arises due to contact with the consciousness. Mental formations arise due to mental condtioning and training(or lack thereof).You see a flower. The raw data enters the eye. The brain, via conditioning/ 'learning' differentiates this as a flower, its color, its shape(you may even have labels). Deeper analysis would include its function and mechanism, how it works, what it is made from, how it came to be. A feeling arises, mental formations arise,...memories are jarred loose.. images, sights sounds, pass before our inner eye in a flash, we breath in, we breath out but we do not notice. Inward drawn with a faraway look, where are we then? If we let it all fall away, the shape, the color, the form, what is left?Discernment of each stage is possible with mindfulness. The same with communication... objects enter the consciousness, give rise to a perception, feeling, a multiplicity of mental formations. This is where the effort of concentration is required. One soon realizes that their attention is shifting constantly from one object to another, resting on nothing, rooted in ??? :)We are a pile of text on a page for a brief snapshot of our mind stream.. formless... already changed! :)
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Comment #172 posted by whig on July 04, 2006 at 13:11:40 PT
lombar #156
I agree.
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Comment #171 posted by whig on July 04, 2006 at 12:59:13 PT
FoM
I'll try to remember to check that out later. My wife is watching TV in the same room with my computer right now so I can't put it on without the sound clashing with each other.
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Comment #170 posted by FoM on July 04, 2006 at 12:41:49 PT
Patrick and Whig and Everyone
I am going thru Neil Young's LWW Today web site. First I listened to the music and now I am watching the videos. Check this out if you have a good connection. It's called Holy Dirt by Steve Schalchlin. http://www.neilyoung.com/lwwtoday/videolinks/videolink_04.html
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Comment #169 posted by whig on July 04, 2006 at 12:40:55 PT
Agreement
Patrick, while there are things we are not yet seeing on the same terms, yet there is this important agreement which I think we should make as solid as we can:"I know some travel their Path to enlightenment without the aid of cannabis. As I said I believe all things are possible. In my experience as in yours I couldn't have traveled without it and my experience as is yours is unique."Without respect to the "enlightenment" aspect, we both agree that our individual paths were strongly aided by the use of cannabis and we agree we could not have traveled so far and well without it. And if there are two of us, coincidentally who agree as to this necessity, then there are two million (or two billion) who could be like ourselves.Do you concur?My path brought me to peace. That is why I feel it is a good path. Because I want people to find peace if they want peace. Because I believe that all good people want peace. Even those who prepare for war. The desire for war is not the desire for good. The belief in the necessity of war is where some disagree, but it should never be a debate over anything but necessity, those who speak of its desirability should be shunned.If I am understanding you well, you believe in the necessity of war, but not its desirability. Is this correct?If this is so, then you, like I, desire peace. And if you desire peace, then the more people who find peace, the less war there will be, because peaceful people are not contributing to war. Do you agree?
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Comment #168 posted by whig on July 04, 2006 at 12:26:28 PT
Patrick
The problem with metaphors is like the problem with hypotheticals, my mental image is not the one you may have had in mind when you gave your description, and the same goes in reverse. So many disagreements are merely a failure to communicate well enough, and where some things are concerned there is little better that can be done.No, I'm not really striving to be a wordsmith. I just type stream of consciousness much of the time because I want to get my thoughts on the page/screen before they pass out of my mind and the train has moved on. To have to reflect back and remember them is disruptive to the flow of ongoing thought.But sometimes the train of thought is started by a word or a metaphor that is out of older memory and the recollection brings back older thoughts that have been supplemented and improved since then, but in the act of recalling, the logic made sense in the light of then understanding. Then an agreement occurs, but has to be retracted.Some words are really poorer metaphors for what I am trying to say than others. That doesn't mean that those words are not part of the path of some people and it doesn't make those words wrong for the purpose of communicating their perspective. But I disagree with myself as to when I used those words.
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Comment #167 posted by global_warming on July 04, 2006 at 11:12:40 PT
there is one
God,May your soul see and reflectThis war on drugs, and all warring differencescan uniteit is the time'Before that TableAt the foot of the CrossIt is TimeEmbrace and Hold On
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Comment #166 posted by global_warming on July 04, 2006 at 11:04:31 PT
as long as your belief
is how long this world,the depth of mockeryis your measurein this World
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Comment #165 posted by global_warming on July 04, 2006 at 10:35:53 PT
has not our world
been filled with so death,looking at that fingerwho accuses meand the state rushes init is the lawand I must be put to death
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Comment #164 posted by global_warming on July 04, 2006 at 10:17:55 PT
re:152
tokerOO, happy aniv, and I liked what you said, it makes sense to me.
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Comment #163 posted by FoM on July 04, 2006 at 10:17:12 PT
Patrick
That was good. What actually are we free to do in the USA?
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Comment #162 posted by global_warming on July 04, 2006 at 10:10:37 PT
looking at those faces in that cartoon
clueless..
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Comment #161 posted by Patrick on July 04, 2006 at 10:05:53 PT
funny follow up
I hope this cartoon reflects this...http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f297/pshaughn/day.jpgI am sure No Cannabis is written on the sign somewhere.
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Comment #160 posted by FoM on July 04, 2006 at 09:52:19 PT
global_warming
You are so right. At least we understand what freedom is.
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Comment #159 posted by global_warming on July 04, 2006 at 09:48:27 PT
its funny
and sad,America is celebrating Independence Day, while most of us haven't a clue how much Freedom has been lost by the average American.
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Comment #158 posted by Patrick on July 04, 2006 at 09:27:11 PT
Toker00
Happy anniversary and Happy 4th!
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Comment #157 posted by Patrick on July 04, 2006 at 09:24:22 PT
Wordsmith
I aspire to be a “good” wordsmith and I can sense you aspire to be a better wordsmith as well whig. Am I correct?In the same light that you were not happy with the way you used the word “illuminated.” In looking back, “ladder” was a poor choice on my part because it painted a vision of being”higher” or above others if you will. Attaining a moment of enlightenment, oneness, emptiness, nirvana, or what ever other word is used to flavor the experience found is something that I believe comes in steps, stages, increments or in my earlier example the rungs of a ladder. One does not reach this state of awareness by passing over all the levels of spiritual experience even though I believe all things are possible. Whether your travels, if any at all, move you up, or down or sideways is only a frame of reference in the physical world. So I believe.To answer your direct question I do believe that cannabis will help to make this a more peaceful world. I see the Art of Peace as the best Path but not the only Path. I know some travel their Path to enlightenment without the aid of cannabis. As I said I believe all things are possible. In my experience as in yours I couldn’t have traveled without it and my experience as is yours is unique.A wise man once said there are many paths leading to the top of Mount Fuji, but there is only one summit--love.
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Comment #156 posted by lombar on July 04, 2006 at 09:18:51 PT
Dhammapada
The Dhammapada is a collection of sayings that contain the messages of the Buddha. The tradition was originally oral until about 400 years after Siddartha Gotama when a gathering of monks decided to write it all down. That particular saying was to encourage practice AWAY from the worldly life. What I can never really understand about christianity is why so many are pre-occupied with the Old Testament? New deal, new testament. Sometimes I used to turn on a tv preacher and they always jump around like what they are saying makes sense. The bible itself is a collection of writings that may or may not have been 'inspired'... but to believe that what we have is the WHOLE word of God seems limiting. Why do we defer to the ancient people of the past as 'spiritual' experts? After 2000 years, many cling to the words on paper as if they were more important than their own thoughts.What of the bushman, a good hearted person, who has never heard of God, or Jesus, or any of it... is this person 'condemned' because he has not 'heard the word' and 'repented'?277-279When you see with discernment,'All fabrications are inconstant' —you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity.
When you see with discernment,'All fabrications are stressful' —you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity.
When you see with discernment,'All phenomena are not-self' —you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity.------------------------------
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Comment #155 posted by Hope on July 04, 2006 at 07:36:15 PT
Happy Anniversary
Toker and Toker's wife!
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Comment #154 posted by afterburner on July 04, 2006 at 07:36:05 PT
#135 lombar RE Christianity Satanism Prohibition
Interesting, sounds like karma:{121-122Don't underestimate evil ('It won't come to me'). A water jar fills, even with water falling in drops. With evil — even if bit by bit, habitually — the fool fills himself full.Don't underestimate merit ('It won't come to me'). A water jar fills, even with water falling in drops. With merit — even if bit by bit, habitually — the enlightened one fills himself full.}Believe it or not I never really understood Christianity until I studied how the Popes created Satanism by demonizing the old religions of paganism, Wicca, Judaism, and Islam. The Crusades were fought over this and the Spanish Inquisition. Later, the witchcraft trials of Salem, Massachusetts.The curses used in Satanism are meant to do harm to others. Those foolish rebels that embraced Satanism are like empty bellows [see fool below], manipulated by the deceiver. This is often described as evil. It is said that Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law, which condemns sorcery. If there is no evil, no hell, no curses, then there is nothing to be redeemed from, no salvation, and Jesus becomes nothing more than a compassionate role model. However, it is written that he spoke "with authority" that common folk and scholars were impressed by his message.The Bible has a very harsh and ambiguous stand on sorcery: "You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery." Exodus 22:18 (Amplified Bible) Yet, sorcery is related to magic (black vs. white: harm vs. heal), and the Magi came to visit the Christ child in his manger in Bethlehem! Fundamentalists would say there is no ambiguity, but they are not fully informed of the historical context! Magic (paranormal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SorceryMany in the religious right act as if they have not yet been saved from the curse, as if they are still cursed, as if they must still slavishly follow the curse of the law, as if they are not yet redeemed. Hence, they are obsessed with crime and punishment, prohibition and joylessness.True Christianity is full of joy, compassion and thankfulness that Jesus walked among us, that the kingdom of God is within us, that we are redeemed from the curse.I agree that faith is a personal journey. Religions and books are only guides to experience of God or ultimate reality. The map is not the territory.fool http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fool"Main Entry: fool.
Pronunciation: 'fül.
Function: noun.
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French fol, from Late Latin follis, from Latin, bellows, bag; akin to Old High German bolla blister, balg bag -- more at BELLY.
1 : a person lacking in judgment or prudence.
2 a : a retainer formerly kept in great households to provide casual entertainment and commonly dressed in motley with cap, bells, and bauble b : one who is victimized or made to appear foolish : DUPE.
3 a : a harmlessly deranged person or one lacking in common powers of understanding." NOTE: "During the Middle Ages, the predominant Christian view of witchcraft was that it was an illusion. People might think they were witches, but they were fooling themselves, or the Devil was fooling them. Most authorities thought that witchcraft could do no serious harm, because it was not real. It took the arguments of theologians, a number of inquisitor’s manuals, and a series of papal bulls (written letters of judgment and command) to contradict that traditional Christian idea, and identify witchcraft with a dangerous heresy. Ultimately in 1484, Pope Innocent VIII, in his bull Summis desiderantes, let the Inquisition pursue witches." --Common Errors about Witch Hunts, by Brian A. Pavlac,
Ph.D., Associate Professor of History http://tinyurl.com/fddzeBTW, Pope Innocent was the same Pope who demonized cannabis! The Sociology Of Cannabis And World History. "In 1484, Pope Innocent VIII singled out cannabis healers and other herbalists, proclaiming hemp an unholy sacrament of the second and third types of Satanic ..."
http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mj018.htm
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Comment #153 posted by FoM on July 04, 2006 at 07:19:36 PT
Happy Anniversary Mr. and Mrs. Toker00
Have a great day!
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Comment #152 posted by Toker00 on July 04, 2006 at 05:57:01 PT
I understood you, Patrick.
You were right on in your response of "Whose God?". Exactly what I expected. I'm not as cultured as whig, so I get clumsy with words sometimes. To me, God is a mystery, just as it tells us in the Bible, and maybe in other books. There is not one person on Earth who can truly say I KNOW WHAT GOD IS. Not even the six billion who are alive today and all those who have died in the past. Though we seek God, we cannot "contain" God, and then say to all, "This is God". Not one religion, or one chosen idol, can explain what God is, for that wisdom is to remain a mystery until the end times. Not one of us will completely know God, but collectively, we will ALL understand God. Each one of us contains that specific piece, or pieces, of God we seek. When we have all gathered those pieces of God, then we'll all add up to the total of God. And that might take forever!There is knowledge, and there is wisdom. It takes an UNDERSTANDING of knowledge to ever gain wisdom. We can't just look at a situation and jump right to a conclusion, because wisdom has taught us that situations may have better or worse conclusions, depending on your UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE of the situation. Situations are three dimensional, too. You have to look at ALL the angles. For example: The DEAth thinks drugs are bad, so therefore the conclusion of the situation is to ban drugs. Now, had they tried to understand the situation from all angles, and not just that paycheck angle, they would UNDERSTAND that Prohibition is only one conclusion, and with further understanding, it is the WORST conclusion. But they only have the first conclusion in their hearts. They have KNOWLEDGE in their hearts, not WISDOM. You owe me no apology. I make so many mistakes trying to get my point across, I wonder how anyone UNDERSTANDS me. Perhaps only those with WISDOM in their hearts do. Happy Fourth of JULY! My wife and I will have a great anniversary today. No. 14!Wage peace on war. END CANNABIS PROHIBITION NOW!
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Comment #151 posted by whig on July 04, 2006 at 00:06:57 PT
#146
Actually I'm agreeing with this less the more I read it.I'm going to have to sleep on this one, because I actually think I understand where you are because I used to believe in the same way you seem to.Really, this isn't an elevation trip. This isn't about getting to the top of a ladder. It isn't about being the highest.I don't think we're seeing the same picture at the moment, though. But that's just fine, we can talk more later.
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Comment #150 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 23:53:10 PT
Patrick
So, to put this back to you in the form of a question....If we are to agree on what we believe in at least general terms, can you agree that cannabis would help to make a more peaceful world? Can you see the Path of Peace working better with cannabis?
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Comment #149 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 23:47:19 PT
Metaphors
I really hate when they don't work.I write things and then reread them and wish I could edit.Sometimes it's a good thing I can't, because I might take out something that was correct. Sometimes it just feels awkward.I don't like that word, "illuminated."We aren't really. We're just looking with our eyes. Anyone can do that. And the ladder works for some people, but that's just not really the thing itself. That's a way of understanding. That's not a way of perceiving directly.To see God, as ourselves, to speak as with the authority of knowing what you are, what we all are, it is something else that I do not think I could have achieved without cannabis.I cannot assume to speak for all others, but there must be many like myself. Perhaps most. Cannabis is the Eucharist, in my own metaphor, and to suggest that we could have Christianity without a Eucharist is to think we could have something impossible. I am relying partly on scriptural metaphor and partly on my own perception.I think this is absolutely the correction that I needed to make to my last post.
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Comment #148 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 23:37:26 PT
Patrick
But cannabis is necessary, because it illuminates the dark. And while what you say is true, a person may climb without, it is an aid to many. Far too few will attempt the climb without the assistance.
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Comment #147 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 23:21:56 PT
Patrick
Thank you. I agree.
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Comment #146 posted by Patrick on July 03, 2006 at 22:25:01 PT
common fatih
Indeed we do. I embrace all when it comes to the spirit. I have read of Namaste as that duality that has ever existed in this world and suggests an effort on our part to bring these two forces together, ultimately leading to a higher unity and non-dual state of Oneness. Different words as yours but same meaning I believe.I believe one has to climb the spiritual ladder one rung at a time until they find the Source, The Oneness, The Divine. The trick once there is to kick the ladder away and remain. Some never make it to the first rung. I believe some souls make it all the way without cannabis. Cannabis is food for the spirit of which there is no doubt but the enlightenment I believe we both speak of can be reached without it. I prefer it’s healing assistance myself.
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Comment #145 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 22:15:39 PT
Happy 4th of July Everyone
This is a very nice song I found on NY's Living With War Today web site. I want a good America again.It's called: They Called Her America By Jenny Yateshttp://www.neilyoung.com/lwwtoday/songslinks/songlink_016.html
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Comment #144 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 21:13:14 PT
Patrick
I think the best way I can express my belief is in the Hindu word "Namaste."God in me meets God in you. We are all God, and God is within all of us. And we have many aspects but there is only one consciousness that we all share, we are all part of a single God.Some of us are more aware of us than others, but it is no less so for the unaware. It is the effect of cannabis to awaken ourselves to this consciousness, and it is the religious purpose of our selves to bring about this awakening for those who suffer without it.My children starve for lack of bread, and the spiritual bread of which I speak is cannabis, and it is cannabis that will heal all of the division between us. It is cannabis that bridges the gap between goodness and evil, that undoes the work of the tree of corruption.And so we bring about our holy mission through means that are consistent with goodness. And that does mean the Path of Peace.You are religious and you put no faith in the words of men, as you should not. But you can recognize when a man speaks what you know to be true. And when I speak from an elevated aspect my words are clearer in some sense than at other times, but this is entirely the point.We should all have more clarity.Do we share some common faith?
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Comment #143 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 21:00:30 PT
Patrick
And my eyes look back on you brother.Amen.
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Comment #142 posted by Patrick on July 03, 2006 at 20:28:28 PT
Hello whig
I went through a time in my life where you could say that I was completely and utterly agnostic as you characterize it. It came after decades of profound belief in God, My Country, My Church, and my fellow man. You could characterize it like the foot steps in the sand behind me that weren’t mine; they belonged to a Divine faith that carried me. And like your metaphor of the blind man, one day my eyes were opened to not only the Divine within in me but in all things. That is a very difficult state of enlightenment to maintain in this noisy world of ours but I am only human with the belief in my potential to achieve the Divine gift again. Cannabis does help lower the volume. Your view of what I believe or don’t believe can only be shaped by the words I have typed here recently and they do express a lot of agnosticism. For that I am sorry as there is no doubt in my belief of the Divine. There is so much more to me that yesterday did not even come close to exposing. Again I apologize as sometimes the voice of peace resounds like thunder, jolting my fellow man out of a stupor. Specific apologies to Toker00. I should refrain from that approach going forward since I believe it would be wrong to continue in such a manner now. My current doubt is in man to resist the urge to define, categorize or even attempt to label my unique and individual relation with the whole of creation itself, The Divine.The Art of Peace is by far a better Path than the Art of War. My eyes are wide open my brother.
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Comment #141 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 19:30:57 PT
Elevating the discourse
Patrick, you have basically expressed your view also as being that of agnosticism, would that be a fair characterization? Agnostic in that you may not know whether or not God exists and what that even means. And agnostic in that you have no faith in the churches and synogogues and mosques and temples that adorn the land, and their interpretations of scripture are all too divergent to be credible. Do I fairly express your view?Now I could tell you that God does exist but you have no faith that my words are true. I could be confused, or misled, or something else, even if you believe that I am honest. There are many honest fools in the world.But words cannot suffice, they cannot convey the meaning behind the words unless you perceive the thing being described. If I describe a rainbow to a blind man, it is meaningless. If the man were not actually blind, and had only to open his eyes to see, then I would help him to open his eyes before trying to convince him further of the rainbow.Does that metaphor make sense to you?You can't see God, so you don't believe in God. And I think you are in the absolute right to do so. So do you want to open your eyes and look?Smoke a bowl and say hello.
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Comment #140 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 18:58:53 PT
afterburner
So far no date on Neil Young on the Biography Channel on DirecTV but I will keep my eyes open. Someone said that Graham Nash was in a wheelchair but I don't know why or if it's true. I went and found his web site and it really is nice to listen to and watch if you have a high speed connection. http://www.grahamnash.com/
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Comment #139 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 18:58:12 PT
Patrick
I believe we have free will, to follow whatever laws or not as we choose. That does not make it right to do wrong. I am not a relativist about all things. But the decision is each of ours to make, and I believe that we do know the right from the wrong when we are shown the difference. And if you knowingly choose to do wrong when you know it is wrong, then you are accountable for it.But this is not about whether you will be praised or punished, it is about living in a world that we are making together. As you treat others will be your treatment if justice prevails. And if mercy prevails, even better, but you cannot ask it if you continue to do wrong.As for laws and their enforcement among people, the highest penalty should be exile from the community, to be shunned from decent society, and only defended against as necessary beyond that. Less than this there are various kinds of disapproval which can be used as sanction. I do not believe in jails or capital punishment.These sound to most modern people as if they are insufficient remedies for criminality, but they do work very well where they are used in communities like the Amish and Mennonites. It requires a good deal more patience and forbearance, and discernment rather than judgment, but it does work.This is at least what I think a good society does. And I do not believe that such a society can undertake wars, and survive in a peaceful form. War is the destruction of society.
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Comment #138 posted by Patrick on July 03, 2006 at 17:18:22 PT
Toker00
First off, I don’t claim to have the answers. Second I only posted another’s writings on the current war in Iraq because if we can’t handle and recognize or read another’s viewpoint without getting all defensive and failing to approach or debate an uncomfortable topic in the spirit that whig and I did with a mutual respect for our difference of opinion then we have become no different than the all the other “closed minded” people on this planet who would just destroy what they fail to understand. If we can understand each other and still disagree without killing one another is that not the essence of PEACE itself? I think it is really that simple and if you disagree with me all I am saying is I would not kill you for it. Others are not so forgiving. Even Mother Nature is extremely violent but that is yet another discussion.You said something that I will admit disturbs me…We don't follow God's laws in America, we follow Man's laws. THAT is indefensible.I disagree. Why? Well for one, unless my public education was way off base, I thought Independence Day was in part a celebration of the Freedom to practice one’s faith without persecution.Secondly, because that puts us right back to the root of most wars that mankind has ever fought. Which GOD’s law shall you FORCE others to follow then?Yours? Gandhi’s? Mine? Perhaps it’s the GOD that declares to you in a dream to burn witches at the stake or even more topical should we be subjugated to the GOD that tells us we have to kill all the infidels. If you attempt to force your GOD’S laws upon me with the immediate threat of my extinction for failure to except your GOD's laws, I will kill you if I must in order to survive. Call me wrong if you must and we can just leave it right there. No harm no foul.Yep whig I do call it self defense and so does the Muslims. I do get it and it also reminds me of the story of the tigers that chased each other until they turned into butter. As I admitted, I am not one willing to turn the other cheek in matters of my life or death. I will fight back to LIVE another day and smoke a glorious bowl of thanks even though it is currently illegal by MAN’s law. I have faith that I can change and mold MAN’s laws. I don’t have faith that I can change another person’s perception of what they believe their GOD told them is the law. And if they come to cram their GOD’s law down my throat…round and round and round into butter we will turn.The last thing I want to see replace corporats is religious zealots that insist I follow laws based on their blind faith to some mysterious GOD who also mysteriously told them what the laws are and how to enforce them. If I am left with either to follow some strange GOD’s laws or die by the hand of GOD's misguided believer as he proclaims burn forever in hellfire disbeliever, then I’ll take the United State’s, jacked up as they me be, man laws any day.
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Comment #137 posted by Patrick on July 03, 2006 at 15:14:42 PT
whig
That's cool because I would do the same in that scenario. I think most of us would. It's very difficult to "blog" complicated topics and ideas as we all know. There are so many colors to our emotions and our experiences while common can also be unique. The only black and white in the realm in which we live that I can see, is life and death itself.
It's why I choose to see the three sides of a coin not the two the majority focuses on. Putting myself mentally on the the edge allows me to listen to both sides of an issue without being on either side. Now granted the Chinese symbol of the yin and yang offers a better graphical diagram of my spiritual viewpoint than the coin analogy but after sleeping rather well yesterday I see a fine line or edge in the meaning of the yin and the yang that I never noticed before.
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Comment #136 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 13:44:15 PT
Patrick
I have thought about your scenario from a standpoint that makes sense to me. I will not pose it as a question because you could not necessarily imagine the details as I would, since we are speaking of things that are only hypothetical.Were I to come upon a person who I believed was about to inflict some harm upon another, I hope that I would instruct him or her to stop.What happens from there, I don't know because I can't imagine the scenario beyond that.
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Comment #135 posted by lombar on July 03, 2006 at 12:55:48 PT
afterburner
I had very little interest in any religons at all until my own personal awakening then I tried to make sense of my own experiences. I had never read the New Testament, nor had any inkling of what Buddhism was about. I read the Gita, I tried to read the Qu'ran. About a decade ago, a lot of things became crystal clear. Faith may be found in religion but religion is no more 'faith' than anger is compassion. Faith, love, hope, all exist within us if at all. Books may convey rules of conduct, paths to enlightenment, declarations of the nature of existence, but in the end, it is we who must 'realize' and actualize the information. As for your friend whig, one cannot eat poison without becoming poisoned. I thought of the following :121-122Don't underestimate evil
('It won't come to me').
A water jar fills,
even with water
falling in drops.
With evil — even if
bit
by
bit,
habitually —
the fool fills himself full.Don't underestimate merit
('It won't come to me').
A water jar fills,
even with water
falling in drops.
With merit — even if
bit
by
bit,
habitually —
the enlightened one fills himself full.
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Comment #134 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 12:43:31 PT
I wonder
Do I make you laugh sometimes?
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Comment #133 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 12:35:07 PT
Oh
Flipped it. Now the floor's a ceiling and whig is happy.
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Comment #132 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 12:34:01 PT
afterburner
Thank you. Have a good night at work. I'll check if it's on here.
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Comment #131 posted by afterburner on July 03, 2006 at 12:28:01 PT
FoM: One Last Comment before Work
{Wednesday, July 4th, 2006Neil Young 8 p.m. ET/PTThe Biography Channel (if you get it)Canada's revered rock god goes under the microscope in this two-hour biography.}Watch for it!
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Comment #130 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 12:25:02 PT
Enlightening as heck though
And very productive.You get what you need, I think.Wow. Now there's the Stones meaning:You can't always get what you want.
But if you try sometimes, you get what you need.Dark pot. That's what the Stones are.My friend, though, she is not a cannabist.Salvia divinorum is very much the opposite tree from cannabis.
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Comment #129 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 12:21:49 PT
Dark pot
Really, it is.There's a ceiling, but no floor.
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Comment #128 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 12:20:56 PT
Answer
No, that's the very banality of evil itself.It thinks it is doing it for a good purpose.Evil is as evil does.And now you've met my adversary.
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Comment #127 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 12:20:12 PT
I wonder if there's a word for...
Someone who practices evil with the intent that good should prevail.Not evil, perhaps.
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Comment #126 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 12:18:32 PT
On second thought
What my friend is doing -- is evil.All I'm saying is, I love her anyhow.
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Comment #125 posted by afterburner on July 03, 2006 at 12:11:34 PT
whig & lombar: my Two Cents Worth
#57 whig"what compassion is"?#70 lombar"mindfulness"{221Abandon anger,be done with conceit,get beyond every fetter.When for name & formyou have no attachment— have nothing at all —no sufferings, no stresses, invade.}Based on my personal survey of many world religions, I found "compassion" to be a central theme in many of them. I believe emotions help us to bond with and to understand and care for our fellow humans, especially during child-rearing and illness. Emotions when abused can also be a drug that confuses the thoughts and the actions. In Christianity, compassion is considered to be a more advanced emotion on our spiritual journey of discovery and understanding. "Righteous" anger against the suffering of others is considered to be a higher feeling than selfish anger. From Hinduism, I learned that Samadhi is *not* final release from consciousness, but rather "focused self-awareness," akin to mindfulness. This is not selfishness (concern only for one's self), nor selfishness (concern only for others in a doormat style of life), but rather "selffulness," a realistic care for self in order to relate to and help others.From Buddhism and Zen, I learned to avoid attachments to the world of suffering. Again, the purpose of nirvana (not the rock band) is not to escape from the world of suffering, but as in Mahayana Buddhism to return to society as an enlightened being and to share the experience and learnings with others.
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Comment #124 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 12:10:21 PT
Thoughts
So like I said I had friends over, and had conversations with some that I haven't in a very long time, and learned a lot about how they are seeing things that are going on.I now understand the Ann Coulter. One of my friends is becoming like her. She explained what she is doing. I understand. I don't agree, but I do understand.There is a real battle going on here in the sense of how we are going to evolve as a people, and how we are going to treat one another. Are we going to have peace or are we going to have war? Are we going to take care of one another or are we going to kill one another? And how are we going to get from here to where we are going?My friend, she is knowingly and intentionally trying to deliver what she calls a civics lesson.She does not approve of the Bush regime, she does not approve of any of the torture and horror that is being perpetrated. But she voted for him in 2004. She wanted to make sure we understand what we are dealing with and to make a choice against that. She believes that America deserves Bush.She is considering herself now as an adversary, and it is an aspect of God which is not evil when understood in the right light, that it is part of God's nature and part of the necessary process of learning right from wrong. She is feeding us from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.I said before that there was no difference, the tree of life is the same tree as the tree of knowledge. It is not so, but the forbidding does not mean we are not expected to eat from both in some measure. The forbidding that a parent makes against his child ever trying cannabis is never likely to work once the child is grown. So too with the forbidding of the tree of knowledge.I think that we have a choice to make and we should not eat from the wrong tree and we should not try to play God by teaching others a lesson. I think it is wrong. I think my friend is wrong.But I understand.
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Comment #123 posted by global_warming on July 03, 2006 at 11:46:10 PT
re: As we get older we start to look at life
it is different, spoken from insights of lesser and older people, hold those amens, for is this world our world?
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Comment #122 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 11:20:43 PT
afterburner
Thank you. I really liked your answers.
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Comment #121 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 11:19:56 PT
Whig
It isn't a character flaw. I was the same way when I was younger. As we get older we start to look at life differently.
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Comment #120 posted by global_warming on July 03, 2006 at 11:12:06 PT
Jesus was a man
with a soul,he did see his place in this world,he rebuked greed and wickednessevery where he walked and taught2 thousand years laterhis strength and message resounds
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Comment #119 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 11:11:42 PT
afterburner
Amen brother.
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Comment #118 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 11:09:07 PT
FoM #115
You're right, of course. I tend to do that and I shouldn't. I'm someone who likes to drink good tea, for instance, but there's nothing wrong with basic Lipton or even store brand tea bags if that's what someone likes to drink.The point is to be happy with what you have, I guess. But I have a tendency to always look for something better, and when you've found that, it's hard to accept less. That's probably a character flaw.
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Comment #117 posted by afterburner on July 03, 2006 at 11:00:25 PT
FoM #41 WWJD
"I was thinking about Jesus today. If He was walking the earth now and He had time to do what He would want to do what would He do? "Would He visit a Democrat or Republican Convention?"Yes, he would first go the the Republican Convention and speak out about the pharisees. Then, he would go to the Democratic Convention to teach and to shame the hypocrites."Would He want to Hear Jerry Falwell preach?"Yes, to correct the error of Falwell's ways. If Jesus broke the gates of Hell, surely, he would oppose Falwell's message of hatred."Would He want to check in on the street people?"Yes, definitely. He hung out with publicans and sinners in order to bring them healing and salvation."Would He want to visit people in prison?"Yes, it is the way of the Father. Jesus would comfort and teach them."What would He do?"He would go to Congress and call them to account, to ask them why they outlawed God's healing gift of cannabis. He would tell the truth, heal, teach, preach, correct the "sinful," comfort the downtrodden, the widows, the orphans, challenge false authority, perform miracles of the kind that have not yet been seen before, and more...
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Comment #116 posted by global_warming on July 03, 2006 at 10:51:53 PT
hey whig
the best of luck,in your move,I Love You.
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Comment #115 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 10:50:21 PT
Whig
I'm not really sure I understand what you mean but that's ok. I believe if people think they are rich and they are poor it is better then being rich and thinking they are poor.
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Comment #114 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 10:45:54 PT
FoM
We're still here for another 10 days or so.I won't probably be posting much after this week until we get situated, because we'll be finishing up our packing and then our stuff will be gone before we leave. I'm keeping my laptop with me though so I should be able to get online here as soon or wherever I have internet connectivity.We had a brilliant plan to give away all of our stuff that we weren't taking with us. Somehow, some of the people who came to take stuff away brought us other stuff, and hence my comment of a few minutes ago. I appreciate it very much. It's just kind of a strange thing to think how poor a community can really be even when it thinks itself rich.
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Comment #113 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 10:41:37 PT
Whig
I know your move is coming up soon. How are you and Mrs. Whig doing? Please when it's time for you to turn off the computer let us know before you do that.
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Comment #112 posted by global_warming on July 03, 2006 at 10:34:09 PT
now now..
It does look a bit murky, but there is some Light..
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Comment #111 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 10:29:28 PT
Some kinda shit
Tastes not so good, works but kinda dark, and smells not so excellent. That's what my friend calls "kind." I don't even know what to say. I want to say thanks, and I do. But people don't even realize, out here.
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Comment #110 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 10:27:25 PT
gw
Like you, I am a soul. I have a body.
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Comment #109 posted by global_warming on July 03, 2006 at 10:24:44 PT
re: human beings seem simply plain
Don't get fooled by that widescreen, people have bombs, guns and such hatred and anger, did I mention Greed, can good people on this planet ever see a good change in our ways?
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Comment #108 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 10:19:18 PT
global_warming
I really liked that article. It reminds me of some of the articles in Mother Earth News years ago. I loved that magazine. We have friends that decided it was for them too and they still are happy and getting by. I know some people like city living but many people love the country. I watched a show last night on ocean life. It's a series called Blue Planet. Some of the creatures from the depths of the ocean are so colorful it makes human beings seem simply plain. http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/blueplanet/blueplanet.html
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Comment #107 posted by global_warming on July 03, 2006 at 10:11:10 PT
ah whigger
some of of have no choice, we are so close to the earth, we use modernism and her bastard child called technology, to protect our everlasting souls, now there is a word, "soul", do you whigger have a soul?
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Comment #106 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 09:59:21 PT
gw
You know the back to nature and eliminating technology and convenience from our lives is attractive to some people, but it isn't going to be desirable to a majority. We should find ways to integrate nature with our technological world, not replace either one with the other.The real failing of the industrial age was its desire to suppress and eliminate nature from the consciousness. We shouldn't try to do the same in reverse.
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Comment #105 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 09:52:47 PT
global_warming
Great article. I still have the original article bookmarked. We left the city moved to no man's land and have never looked back.If people live in the areas that I call hot zones I feel sorry for them.
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Comment #104 posted by global_warming on July 03, 2006 at 09:43:29 PT
hey whigger
"It's about a lot of things," I hope all these things are not all based on some kind of 'war..I posted an article a while back, it was a disturbing article..The End of Civilization http://dave.eriqat.name/DE_End_of_Civilization.htmlThis is a follow up to that article..How to Save the World
http://dave.eriqat.name/DE_How_to_Save_the_World.html"PrefaceAwakening as the day’s first rays of sunlight brighten my bedroom, I dress hurriedly and run downstairs. Even though it’s a Saturday, I’m eager to get to “work.” Passing through the kitchen on my way to the back door, I notice that my wife, Anna, has already made some coffee. Pouring myself a cup, I take it with me as I head out the back door on my way to my workshop. My workshop is where I work. I’ve been self employed as a furniture maker for a couple of years now, and presently I’m working on a fine dresser for my neighbor, Sam. As I cross the yard on the way to my workshop, I see Anna tending our garden. Our young son William is feeding our small flock of chickens and other animals, intermittently playing with our two beautiful dogs.We’ve had so many tomatoes this year that we’ve been trading them to the neighbors for their surplus produce. It’s been absolutely marvelous to enjoy such a variety of fresh, organic produce in this abundant year. I still recall the tasteless, wax-like produce we used to buy in the commercial grocery stores years ago, thinking that was normal. I’d never shop in another grocery store for produce after tasting what I and my neighbors can produce.In addition to tomatoes, our garden produces several dozen other types of fruits, vegetables, beans, and herbs. Besides corn that we acquire from local farmers, we feed our chickens food scraps that we would otherwise throw away. In return our chickens produce the best tasting eggs imaginable, their poop is a surprisingly good fertilizer, and they are effective pest controllers. In all, our plot of land produces about half our food. The other half comes from my talent as a furniture maker. The dresser I’m making for Sam will provide us with meat from his farm for several months.I used to work in Manhattan as an accountant for a large firm, where I was paid a large salary. My wife and I owned a great condo, a nice car, and had all the trendiest gadgets. We dined in the finest restaurants, went to Broadway shows, and occasionally flew first class to Europe. We really thought we were “fulfilled.” One day, while reading about the “downshifting” trend in Europe, I realized just how unfulfilling our life really was. I also came to appreciate how little control we had over our lives. I was totally dependent on my employer to maintain our precarious existence. Without my high paying job, we’d promptly be forced to give up our nice condo, car, and luxurious living. I discussed these thoughts with my wife, but it took many months for the truth of my words to sink in to both of us. We weren’t “living” in any real sense; we were existing. Worse, we were not in control of our lives, but existed at the whim of the executives controlling my firm. After much talk, we sold our condo and car, moved to rural Kentucky, and bought an old house with some land. It was a major transition for us, especially since we didn’t know a soul there, but the lifestyle quickly grew on us. The most surreal thing about our new life was the absence of stress about finances, job security, noise, crime, etc. I daresay, we had unwittingly found paradise. While we never thought about having children when we lived in Manhattan, somehow, living in the country made childrearing seem like the most natural thing in the world, and it wasn’t long after we moved to that paradise that Anna became pregnant with our first child.Today we largely support ourselves. We produce much of our own food. My talent is in great demand. I currently have orders for half a dozen pieces of furniture from my neighbors, all in exchange for products of their labor. I no longer have any fear about my job security.Moreover, we’ve shunned much of the materialism we once regarded as essential to living. We don’t subscribe to cable television; our television is used only for watching movies on DVDs which we share amongst our community. We got rid of our fancy car and bought an old pickup truck, but we rarely even drive that because pretty much everything we need is near enough that we can use our bicycles. We have no technological gadgets, not even a mobile phone. We have a computer and a dialup Internet connection, which we use for e-mail and reading news online. Our life is much simpler than it was, but we are happier. Looking back, it’s surprising how much stress came from having to acquire and maintain all those gadgets we thought were so vital. Besides working, we spend a lot of time talking to each other, visiting with our friendly neighbors, playing cards with them, and reading books that we also share amongst our community. Even our limited dependence on our neighbors has reintroduced us to the concept of tolerance for others’ differences. Anna is now learning to knit sweaters from one of our neighbors, whom in New York we would have considered too odd to associate with. And now my brother, who is worried about his own job security, has decided to move here. We’re looking for a house for him now, and it will be wonderful to have him and his wife living near us.
IntroductionResponding to my essay titled The End of Civilization, some people suggested I should write about the solutions I referred to in passing. The foregoing fiction is meant to introduce readers of this essay to what I see as one solution to the many crises facing humanity and our planet. In a nutshell, my solution to what ails us and our planet is this: reject consumerism, globalization, corporatism, and government, and return to localized, productive, community-oriented, sustainable living. .."
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Comment #103 posted by Toker00 on July 03, 2006 at 09:26:49 PT
Some reading for the Fourth.
This one is from Progressive Democrats e-mail.http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/12564Kapt. posted this one at DWW, hope he doesn't mind if I post it here.http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/nock3b.htmlThe first article basically describes what Patrick is still willing to defend. In vain?The second one, well, you decide. Again, end the War on American citizens if you want unity. But you will still have to respect those of us who demand an end to all wars, and who will STILL reject Lies and Deception, and the idea that war will get you peace. Unify the People. The government is corrupt. It's time to change it.Toke.
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Comment #102 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 08:50:52 PT
Off Topic: More Taxes
'People are Sitting Around Trembling'***By Kera Ritter, Inquirer Staff WriterAbout 45,000 state employees are out of work as the impasse continues between Gov. Corzine and New Jersey legislators over how to balance the state budget.Yesterday was the first full day of the government shutdown, ordered by Corzine on Saturday after he and Assembly leaders tangled over his plan to increase the sales tax from 6 percent to 7 percent to help close a $4.5 billion gap in the $31 billion budget.Complete Article: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/new_jersey/14954973.htm
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Comment #101 posted by whig on July 03, 2006 at 08:44:03 PT
gw
It's about a lot of things, all in conformity with one another. It's a religious war for some, a war for Israel for some, a war for corporate profits for some. It's an ideology of death, whichever way you justify it, and an ideology of enslavement to the ruling PTB.
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Comment #100 posted by global_warming on July 03, 2006 at 08:19:00 PT
Nicely Said Tokeroo
Maybe this war is about the US shipping its brand of corporate slavery around the world. It seems that the enemy totally refuses to bow down to this type of slavery.
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Comment #99 posted by FoM on July 03, 2006 at 08:11:30 PT
Toker00
I agree with you. War, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.
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Comment #98 posted by Toker00 on July 03, 2006 at 07:39:13 PT
Patrick
Want to find unity in this country? Then first we have to end the thing that causes the MOST dis-unity. The War on American Citizens. The Drug War. Not only do we have an army to fight foreign enemies, we have one to fight the citizens, too. A MILITARIZED police force. One that arrests sick people and then lets them die in jail. How does this create unity? One that throws innocent people in with hardened criminals, to be broken and abused. One that arrests citizens for expressing opinions of peace over war. How does that create unity? A nation who claims people who buy illegal drugs are supporting terrorists so they can be more demonized than just being called hippies? A nation who cries "Drug Free America" while popping DRUGS that Kill while demonizing natural medicine that safely heals. How does that cause unity? Perhaps if we ended the war on ourselves, we could concentrate on a war with our enemies. If we stopped denying education to the very people who need it the most, the poor, for simply possessing a plant, we could concentrate on a war with our enemies. Hell, most people don't even see the drug war for what it is. Protection for the corporations who want to do the very same thing you blame Muslims for. They, too, want to control the world. But theirs is not a religious desire. It is a desire for Profit at All Costs Human. And they not only want to control the world, (weather, environment, near space) they want to control every person on it, either through military/police force or medication. You say we are free. How free are we? Our freedom is only as deep as our adherence to Corporate Law. We are free to be addicted to pharma-poisons, but not free to plant our own medicine. We are free to be addicted to alcohol, but not free to plant a safe alternative. We are free to enjoy peace, until the draft comes. Capitalism and industrialization have damaged our environment beyond any quick fix. Our reputation with the world has been ruined by a few selfish, egotistical, idiots hell bent on doing the very same thing the Muslims are doing. The difference is capitalists and elitists don't blow themselves up or kill Muslims. They have our poor citizenry to do that for them. All in the name of freedom. THEIR freedom, not ours.Let's end this Corporate War against the citizens, and we will find a unity like never before. Muslims ARE NOT jealous of our so-called freedom. They see the same evil we do in our leaders. They don't want to become a part of what they see as the destruction of creation. We don't follow God's laws in America, we follow Man's laws. THAT is indefensible, and perhaps why, if, we will lose the "war". Personally, I think Christianity and Islam are both WAY over due for reform. They have both IDOLIZED Christ and Mohamed, and ignored both the Father and The Spirit. Creation and Humanity are suffering mostly because of what TWO religions? Christianity, and Islam. Don't you think after two thousand years, there would room for the reform of INSANITY?There is only one hope for Humanity. END ALL WARS!Wage peace on war. END CANNABIS PROHIBITION NOW!
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Comment #97 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 21:37:17 PT
Patrick
Sleep well. I used to disagree with people like me too but I changed sides.
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Comment #96 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 21:26:51 PT
Patrick
Nighty night! LOL! It's been interesting reading for me today.
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Comment #95 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 20:55:33 PT
whig
I do understand! Still disagree. No worries be happy.In my younger days you would be correct in your diagnosis that the motivation was fear. But today fear is nothing more that false enlightenment appearing real. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. Thanks for a spirited conversation today. I must lay me head down and dream of hemp fields aplenty.
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Comment #94 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 20:45:34 PT
Patrick
"Please know it is not hate that guides my attitude although that is what he would say is behind my motivation and I am sensing you see it as that way too."It is fear that guides your attitude, Patrick. You are afraid that you will be killed, you are afraid that you will be made a victim, if you do not strike first, if you do not prevent it. You call this self-defense.Somewhere in the world is another person like yourself, but a Muslim, and he fears that he will be killed, he is afraid that he will be made a victim, if he does not strike first, if he does not prevent it. He calls that self-defense.Do you understand? We have to be the change, we have to be what we want the world to be like, or we will make the world in our image anyhow. And if we make the world in the image of fear and death then you will have no life worth living in it.
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Comment #93 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 20:22:19 PT
killing them all and letting God sort them out.
FoMThat was the prevailing attitude when I was in the military and that attitude hasn’t changed much to this day I presume. I saw someone wearing a T-shirt the other day that said “Happiness is a belt-fed machine gun."I think he had a very different machine gun than Neil Young’s!!!
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Comment #92 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 20:10:02 PT
Love to whig
From your link: Elements of Gandhi’s philosophy were rooted in the Indian religions of Jainism and Buddhism. Both of these advocate ahimsa (non-violence), which is “absence of the desire to kill or harm” (Chapple 10). The Acaranga Sutra, a Jainist text, describes the fundamental need for non-violence: “All beings are fond of life; they like pleasure and hate pain, shun destruction and like to live, they long to live. To all, life is dear” (Chapple 11). Ahimsa is a way of living and thinking which respects this deeply.I vibrate to the meaning here but Gandhi’s premise that all beings are fond of life is false, You only need read the daily news to understand this. Unlike Gandhi I believe in fighting back against those that would take life. I fully understand that this view hampers my karmic trip to nirvana but it’s a price I am willing to pay so many others may practice as they please up to the point where their practice involves taking away another’s life. That’s where Gandhi and I differ. Granted he didn’t do “nothing.” He advocated non-violence but to me, that equates with doing nothingAlso on this other point we differ:
Gandhi rejected the traditional dichotomy between one’s own side and the “enemy;” he believed in the need to convince opponents of their injustice, not to punish them, and in this way one could win their friendship and one’s own freedom. If need be, one might need to suffer or die in order that they may be converted to love (Shepard 4). Why you ask? You could argue they will love you after they’ve killed you and all will be well in your very dead world. Sure.I agree that some aspects of his non-violent philosophy worked such as:Gandhi’s main tactic in his fight against the British was what he called Satyagraha, which means “Soul-Force” or “The power of truth” (Miller 61). Gandhi developed Satyagraha as the practical extension of ahimsa and love; it meant standing firmly behind one’s ideals, but without hatred. Satyagraha took the form of civil disobedience and non-cooperation with evil. Civil disobedience involved breaking a specific law if it was believed to be unjust, and then facing the consequences. The Salt March of 1930, which I described above, was one of Gandhi’s greatest successes in civil disobedience. Salt was necessary to the life of Indian farmers’ cattle, and the British monopoly on salt production had led to massive taxes on the vital substance. Please know it is not hate that guides my attitude although that is what he would say is behind my motivation and I am sensing you see it as that way too. I disagree. I don’t harbor hate toward my fellow man that would attempt to kill me. It’s a love for my life that would motivate me but then we are right back to the top of this debate again with the premise that all people want love. My reality factor says some people will kill you for your shoes, your money, your life, your soul or whatever else motivates these certain humans to kill. All I am saying is that self defense / preservation of my life or other’s life is the only thing that would motivate me to kill another. Nations I think react this same way. So yes on that me and Gandhi diverge quite a bit so what’s so hard to understand about that?BesidesWidespread distrust and hatred was growing between Hindus and Muslims and, on the eve of India’s independence, riots erupted all over India. The country became a bloodbath, in which it was estimated that a million lives were lost (Wolpert 69). Many believed that Gandhi’s non-violence had failed.I can respect Gandhi’s faith. I can respect Christ’s faith but it doesn’t mean I have to accept it as TRUTH.I don’t believe that there are two sides to a coin. I believe there are three.
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Comment #91 posted by ekim on July 02, 2006 at 19:38:20 PT
we must have a free press -to know about war
speaking of war ------- today on c-span bill bennet the ol drug czar was on. i tried to ask him about how the wot war on terror wants all the tools that the war on drugs has -- how the govmint has been less than truthful in forcing the fight -- so i wanted to know from ol casino bill how he felt about fronten for the the drug war sayen that cannabis was so harmful and causen lung cancer and all that now the Head researcher on Pulmanology (sic) UCLA Tashkin has found that for 30 years -------Yes #30 Years he can not find any correlation from smoken Cannabis ---- How long did you know that Bill?-----so how does it feel to have imprisoned so many under the LIE. Taken so many from their homes and family -----destroyed lives like they were a enemy of the State.
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Comment #90 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 19:26:09 PT
Patrick
I would not let harm come to anyone that I was in a position to help. War is different. Like Neil Young says in Rockin in a Free World "We got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand."When we open fire with guns and drop bombs many children and mothers and totally innocent people are killed and mamed. That's the difference between defending a person you see that is in trouble and killing them all and letting God sort them out. That is irresponsible and wrong.
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Comment #89 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 19:25:01 PT
Patrick
I hate to make you read something long if you really aren't interested in understanding non-violence as it was used by Gandhi. While you can make remarks to the effect that you don't agree with what he (or Christ) would do in some situation without referencing a real instance of something they did or said (or failed to do or say) and how you would have handled it differently.So if you're really interested, and you want to discuss why you think non-violence does not work then you might read an article like this and explain what you take exception to in Gandhi's methods as he actually used them:http://www.socialchangenow.ca/mypages/gandhi.htm
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Comment #88 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 19:17:48 PT
I don't want to debate the present war either
But please hear me on this point only.If I understood correctly, whig you admitted you would defend yourself and your wife. I agree that I would do likewise.
FoM addmitted she would attempt save the girl from the attacker. All I am saying is that "WAR" seems to me to be the same reaction but on a national global scale as opposed to the individual scale examples of self defense we already discussed. Nothing more.
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Comment #87 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 19:08:55 PT
Right on whig
The truth is only discovered in ways that can be concealed from the deceivers, lest they silence it. That is why cannabis is illegal: because it aids in the discovery of truth. I agree with that! You said you were a soldier and you fought. But if you did not kill people you were part of a troop deployment that did, correct? Yes in a very broad sense. When a crime is committed, and any member of a group of criminals kills someone, the others, who could reasonably have known the risk that someone would be killed, are held responsible as well, are they not? Yes for example, when applied to say three gang bangers that accost someone and one of the intolerant assailants kills a victim the others present can be held accountable. Sure I agree with that. On the other hand if a cop kills someone in a drug raid do I believe that the cop writing a speeding ticket across town on that same police force is responsible for that death? NO. It goes much deeper than that my friend. It’s the proverbial Catch 22 damned if you damned if you don’t.So, I guess where we differ is in the premise that the war is a lie and a crime. However much you believe it to be so (a lie and a crime) does not make it so to everyone. Regardless of which unit killed who and when you are correct in that I am probably responsible on some higher realm for the actions of the mob of which I belong. I can own up to that because I don’t believe in my simple yet un-brainwashed mind in your premise that it was a crime or a lie. Thank you. Then again what war do you speak of? I cannot let you out of this that easily. You were still wrong to fight a war based on a lie. You weren't wrong in the sense that you are condemned, but inasmuch as you made a mistake to believe the lie, and you did take actions which resulted in deaths and wounds for which you should take some measure of responsibility. Do you disagree? Yes 100%.
But like I said, I may end up answering for it in another realm. I will deal with that bridge when I cross it. If we take this premise to the extreme as a citizen of this country even if you took no action at all towards war and vehemently opposed it publicly just by living here according to the teachings of Osama bin laden you are infidel and deserve Death. Please know that I am free to dismiss his insight too. Gandhi wasn't passive, at all. He spoke. He wrote. He interceded. You cannot just dismiss people like Gandhi (and even Christ) as if they had nothing important to say and without making any effort to understand them. I didn’t think I was dismissing them, but Gandhi’s passivity (semantics argument here) in light of threat of physical bodily harm to him would allow it to happen. Good for him and his devout followers. Since I am free to think on my own, I can dismiss anyone I choose to including the Christ, Buddha, Osama, and even George Bush. I like living in a land where I have that choice and can voice it. I understand this freedom was paid for with real blood and I honor those who died believing their sacrifices gave us such freedoms. I can see unfortunately by reviewing the history of the world what life could be like without these freedoms. If you call that advocating blood then so be it. But again the details are omitted. Why am I in a position like this? How did I get there? Am I armed in someone's home? That is extremely counterfactual in so many ways, and here's where it really breaks down. You can talk about righting all the wrongs of the world if you can just have a protector in every bedroom. Is that the kind of world you want?Having a Superman would be kinda nice but it’s not reality. Hopefully, we can agree to drop the whole hypothetical situation. Actually, I despise hypothetical questions because they arejust too confusing and we'd both have our own particular thoughts and neither one would be a real situation. They usually lead to exchanges such as ours today! No harm no foul.Anyway, you answered the question to the scenario Can I say I would never use violence in any circumstance? No, I could imagine scenarios. Defending my wife, or someone else, it is possible. I don't seek out opportunities to have any need to do that. I don’t think anyone really does but reality happens in real time and maybe it’s the military background but I would FIGHT back. Gandhi would not. Call it a morbid curiosity. I believe that Gandhi and Christ both would turn the other cheek and all I am saying is I couldn’t do that! Rule of thumb: If you think you've rescued someone when they spit in your face as thanks, you haven't helped the situation at all. Further proof that sometimes no good deed goes unpunished. Ha! We are here on this earth to learn and to make it better. Couldn’t agree with you more!!!
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Comment #86 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 17:50:31 PT
Patrick
If your Chong article was intended to persuade us that the Iraq War is justified and that we need to have a war with Islam, and to justify everything the Bush administration is doing in his "war on terror" then consider this:Judge the tree by its fruit. We are the other tree here. Peace. We are waging peace. You are waging war. Which tree yields better fruit?Your war would be endless. You would not win a total victory but by enslaving the rest, and in enslaving making yourself the very devil, part of the Anti-Christ.We are who we are and we are here to do what we do. You can do it along with us and talk with us if you respect that we are not going to debate with you about whether the war in Iraq is a good idea, whether we should invade Iran, whether there is any excuse for any of it that we do not consider to be a recycled lie. And you believe it so you speak from your faith but your faith is misplaced.I'm willing to talk about history and peaceful things we can do in the present, and to discuss why we believe what we do about either one. I'm not willing to debate the present war.
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Comment #85 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 17:28:10 PT
Patrick
That is a war mentality writer. We should have arrested Bin Laden for what he did to us in New York. He is still doing his thing and we invade a sovereign Nation instead. Are we to defend the world or should each country defend itself?PS: You can't win a civil war in a country that isn't our country. We couldn't win Vietnam either.
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Comment #84 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 17:27:43 PT
Patrick
I'm glad we can just talk candidly and without rancor. I don't agree with some of the things that I think you are saying but you are a true believer in what you say, and that is important to me. I respect it very much that you have principles that you defend but you are still willing to listen to criticism with friendship.I used to be a conservative and would have agreed with every word you said. I was brought up to believe in the state and that it was good and it protected us from bad things and defended our rights. I learned otherwise. Most of us have learned that to a large enough extent that we would agree in some respects but some still believe that the war on drugs is just an aberration.But by the same token we have been brainwashed in so many other ways. We cannot find the truth when deception is the rule. The truth is only discovered in ways that can be concealed from the deceivers, lest they silence it. That is why cannabis is illegal: because it aids in the discovery of truth.I am sorry for saying you killed people when you did not. It was not my intent to falsely defame you, and I should have more patiently asked than assumed.You said you were a soldier and you fought. But if you did not kill people you were part of a troop deployment that did, correct?When a crime is committed, and any member of a group of criminals kills someone, the others, who could reasonably have known the risk that someone would be killed, are held responsible as well, are they not?I cannot let you out of this that easily. You were still wrong to fight a war based on a lie. You weren't wrong in the sense that you are condemned, but inasmuch as you made a mistake to believe the lie, and you did take actions which resulted in deaths and wounds for which you should take some measure of responsibility. Do you disagree?I have nothing but respect for Gandhi even though I don’t entirely agree with his degree of passivity.Gandhi wasn't passive, at all. He spoke. He wrote. He interceded. You cannot just dismiss people like Gandhi (and even Christ) as if they had nothing important to say and without making any effort to understand them.You don't have to be perfect. But you have to make an effort to respect what you don't understand if you want to learn anything. We are here on this earth to learn and to make it better.Assume that the attack is going to happen but now you only have a choice between answers #1 & #2 because in a split second the sword will separate this woman’s head from her body.But again the details are omitted. Why am I in a position like this? How did I get there? Am I armed in someone's home? That is extremely counterfactual in so many ways, and here's where it really breaks down. You can talk about righting all the wrongs of the world if you can just have a protector in every bedroom. Is that the kind of world you want?Can I say I would never use violence in any circumstance? No, I could imagine scenarios. Defending my wife, or someone else, it is possible. I don't seek out opportunities to have any need to do that.But to play devil’s advocate I’ll put myself in that scenario and I killed the guy and the woman spit in my face because I insulted her honor and culture and I feel like at that moment I should have paid more attention to the lessons preached by Gandhi.PS-I can live with myself for killing him. I couldn’t live with myself for allowing her head to roll.Rule of thumb: If you think you've rescued someone when they spit in your face as thanks, you haven't helped the situation at all. But I won't try to make up details to go with your imaginary scenario because it's just too confusing and we'd both have our own particular thoughts and neither one would be a real situation.
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Comment #83 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 17:22:12 PT
History Channel: The Revolution
I've been watching this series on the History Channel. It has been very interesting and tonight it will be on until 11 EDT. Thought I'd mention it so others might check it out if they want.http://www.historychannel.com/revolution/
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Comment #82 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 17:15:31 PT
Recent writings on the war
Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA. A different spin on Iraq war.This WAR is for REAL! Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, RetiredTuesday, July 12, 2005
To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country
is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it,
that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are
very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who
realize what losing really means.First, let's examine a few basics:1. When did the threat to us start?
Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United State
is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the
following attacks on us:* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
* New York World Trade Center 2001;
* Pentagon 2001.(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist
attacks worldwide).2. Why were we attacked?Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened
during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush
1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or
Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their
immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.3. Who were the attackers?
In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%.5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?
Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the
predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the
dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no
difference. You either went along with the administration or you were
eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for
political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see
http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm )Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as
the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom
heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept
the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone
who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world
- German, Christian or any others.Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill
all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else.
The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no
protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims
there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim
leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own
pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the
peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?6. So who are we at war with?There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the
Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing
this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't
clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.So with that background, now to the two major questions:1. Can we lose this war?2. What does losing really mean?If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questionsWe can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the
major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the
answer to the second question - What does losing mean?It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means
hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our
business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can
get.What losing really means is:We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will
not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us
dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not
have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past
18 years. The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were
neutered and submissive to them.We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of
reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and
cannot help them.They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will
be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It
doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its
troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their
train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain
to do will be done. Spain is finished.The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they
might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished
too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However,
it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and
fading fast!If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will
all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us,
if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the Muslims, how
could anyone else?The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are
completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and
be likewise committed to winning at any cost.Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until
we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put
100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take
that 100% effort to win.So, how can we lose the war?Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is,
defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose,
and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort If we
are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be
divided, there is no way that we can win!Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life
and death seriousness of this situation.President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation.
Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men
between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow
profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This
is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the
civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to
lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose
all of them permanently.And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil
rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and
in fact added many more since then.Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political
Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a
clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them
out of your head.Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the
Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us
lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is
because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that
conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and
weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our
cause.Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media
regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies
best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the
treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our
military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago
were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands,
cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just
for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed
400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same
type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging
their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq.And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing
videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American
prisoners they held.Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days
have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some
Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses
through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.Can this be for real?The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the
Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of
comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are
fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous
results of losing this war, nothing can.To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner
issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned --
totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor
any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this
does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal.
It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude, of
the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been
pushing us, for many years.Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That
translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United State, but
throughout the world.We are the last bastion of defense.We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge
is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that
we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds
of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our
back, we can defeat anything bad in the world!We can't!If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive,
and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow
freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of
the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or
any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that
contributes to the good of the world.This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or
we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the
Roman Empire . If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books
to be written or read.If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims
take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to
increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little
by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be
fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which
will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve.
Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some
external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away,
politically correct piece by politically correct piece.And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown,
worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to
themselves, once they are in power.They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then
start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control
the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about
the "peaceful Muslims"?I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are
united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the election,
the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation
we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are
talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it.Just for clarification the above essay is not my personal writings. It is the musings of Dr. Chong.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #81 posted by mayan on July 02, 2006 at 16:58:47 PT
War Party?
Libertarians support the war(s)? News to me. I've yet to meet a Liberarian that supports Bush or his wars.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #80 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 16:54:36 PT
A Song I Found On Neil Young's Web Site
It seems perfect for the 4th of July to me.***'Bad President' - Yikes McGee http://www.neilyoung.com/lwwtoday/songslinks/songlink_004.html
Living With War Today: Neil Young
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #79 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 16:35:35 PT
Eating Crow
Eating crowI must have been too stoned this morning when I ranted about the House Resolution. In fact it was just the amendment #46 that received the 259 NO votes. I thought it was the Bill as a whole. I stand corrected and humbly embarrassed. So 259 Congress critters including the one that I voted for said NO to taking cannabis prohibition enforcement money in certain States away from the Fed in order to give it to back certain State's to clean up meth labs if I read this correctly?46. H.AMDT.1143 to H.R.5672 An amendment to prohibit the use of funds from being made available to prevent the States of Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Montana, Rhode Island, Nevada, Oregon, Vermont, or Washington from implementing State laws authorizing the use of medical marijuana, and directing the Attorney General to transfer from available appropriations for the current fiscal year for the Department of Justice any amounts that would have been used for such purpose but for this section to the Drug Enforcement Administration to assist State and local law enforcement with proper removal and disposal of hazardous materials from illegal methamphetamine labs, including funding for training, technical assistance, a container program, and purchase of equipment to adequately remove and store hazardous material.
Sponsor: Rep Hinchey, Maurice D. [NY-22] (introduced 6/28/2006) Cosponsors (None)
Latest Major Action: 6/28/2006 By unanimous consent, the Hinchey amendment was withdrawn.Thinking I need to compose a letter to my Congress critter requesting an explanation. And thinking that I should have been more diligent in understanding how my vote for a representative affects my voice on certain issues???
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Comment #78 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 16:15:30 PT
Hope
That is very true.
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Comment #77 posted by Hope on July 02, 2006 at 16:12:12 PT
no greater gift then to lay down your life....
Over the years I've learned that scripture can mean more than just dying for another's sake.It also means laying down the hopes or plans you had for yourself, to help someone who needs your help. That, also, is laying down "your life" for the sake of another.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #76 posted by Hope on July 02, 2006 at 16:06:39 PT
gw
Sorry to hear about Bubba. It's hard when our little friends leave us.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #75 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 15:56:47 PT
Patrick
We get off on different topics because we are very complex and our reactions are also very complex. It's a good thing to think about this issue. There is no greater gift then to lay down your life for another.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #74 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 15:52:16 PT
FoM
I am glad to hear you would be moved to action when presented with a difficult situation. I am also glad to hear you don't want to kill anyone! Same here. I don't want to kill anyone either, but I would if it was the only way out of a real life situation that would save another's life or my own.Not even sure how we got on this topic unless it had something to do with the line drawn in the sand(onather Mid East reference) of voting either YES or NO on a stupid bill before Congress?
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #73 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 15:41:57 PT
Patrick
By using a Middle East reference it can cause people to get really angry. I have seen the anger by the Bush supporters and war is the answer type people. Kill em all way of thinking is very wrong in my book.If I saw a sexual predator here in the USA trying to kidnap a young girl and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I saw was what was going to happen I would do everything in my power to come between the two and free the girl. Then if I was still alive I'd run as fast as I could and scream for help. I wouldn't kill anyone though.
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Comment #72 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 15:23:28 PT
FoM
I don't know any americans that chop off heads but they do that in our allies country. They don't seem to mind and we don't do anything about it.I don’t know any Americans that chop off heads either. I am familiar with some that blow up buildings in the Midwest, mail letter bombs, or shoot Home Depot shoppers with a rifle but our country has over 20,000 homicides a year and that stat is currently in a decline from a high in 1994. What do we do about it here? The answer is a lot really but we could do more. My scenario was just an exercise using a Middle East reference that is topical today to see if given the chance to do something to stop a violent death who or how many would and who and how many wouldn’t. Actions speak louder than words but not all actions are always motivated towards violence.
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Comment #71 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 15:06:31 PT
Whoa whig
I am not offended in the least. I am on this board because I believe that the truth will set you free. Prohibition of cannabis is a living lie. Life and death is black and white to me. Some may consider me the Bubba of this forum instead of the Buddha but I am JAFO. All the rest is just noise on the dial. So it’s all fun here.Speaking of truth. You killed people for the state, because you believed lies. And you did not intend to kill wrongfully, but it was wrong. That is what I believe. I don't say that with condemnation, and it is something you can be forgiven as all things can be, but we should be honest about our mistakes and admit when we were wrong.
I am lucky. I never had to kill anyone in my life. I am still willing too do so in self defense. No need for forgiveness or to be forgiven here on that account. So no confession from me either I did no wrong.
2. I have nothing but respect for Gandhi even though I don’t entirely agree with his degree of passivity. Correct me if I am wrong but he would not lift a finger in defense of himself much like Christ? I ain’t that Christ like myself. Both men have certainly moved more souls than I ever could imagine. Hence, this why I gave the Gandhi option instead of leaving you with #2 “let the attack happen” as a counterpoint to #3 which you ruled out right away. And you didn’t offer any other explanation #5 so…So to answer your question: How do I know the attack is going to happen? Assume that the attack is going to happen but now you only have a choice between answers #1 & #2 because in a split second the sword will separate this woman’s head from her body. Please feel free to use the image of the kneeling woman in a soccer stadium who was shot in the back of the head if it helps you to visualize the black and white, life and death scenario I painted before you.Answer? #1 or #2 Next question: Am I responsible for killing an innocent man if I do so and then find out it was a lie? There are far too many things that could be wrong with the scenario you present, and perfect knowledge can never be assumed. No you are not responsible. This man was going to take another’s life and you stopped it. However since my simple scenario doesn’t assume that you have perfect knowledge, you did not kill the man. You only injured him and prevented the beheading that was happening before you. The woman thanks you over and over the police arrive take your statement and hauls the guy away and the press makes you a hero.But to play devil’s advocate I’ll put myself in that scenario and I killed the guy and the woman spit in my face because I insulted her honor and culture and I feel like at that moment I should have paid more attention to the lessons preached by Gandhi.PS-I can live with myself for killing him. I couldn’t live with myself for allowing her head to roll.
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Comment #70 posted by lombar on July 02, 2006 at 14:40:06 PT
The way
The way to peace is to practice mindfulness. Whatever religion one may follow, introspection, and mindfulness of mental states is part of the training/beliefs. The more one practices, the better one becomes at observing the arising and falling of different states of mind. Shifts in perception and sensory stimuli caused by drug use, maybe cannabis more so than others because of the internal endocannibinoid system, allows a shift of consciousness that is observable. Seeing, discerning the shift can give insight into the nature of 'states of mind', specifically their not-self nature. The thinker becomes the thought, the thought becomes the thinker, where am "I" when absorbed into playing the guitar? Am I the one directing the fingers? Perhaps "I" am the one hearing the music? Are we like a spider at the center of the web of our senses? Buddhists would say there is nothing there at all or any essence is not self either. Christians, my eternal soul. How can these be reconciled?(essence=soul=piece of God=not self -> everything is God, evil arises from delusion, separation of mind from truth by greed/hate/ignorance - all on loan from the universe - my current reconciliation, delusion or not, who can say?) We can only really be sure of what we have experienced ourselves, anything else depends upon the faith in which one invests the source(s). I have had 'mystical' and/or 'religous' experiences but must ultimately conclude that such 'revelations' may be the mind coping with inevitable realities just as likely as discernment of the true nature of reality. And even should some revelatory experience be valid, it is not a firm enough basis for others to find peace nor the basis for helping others. We can see the negative effects of fanatical belief in revelatory religions, the insistence on dogma for mental or physical control, and now the last thing the state wants is people with true compassion and critical thinking skills to start questioning them. Rule may be enforced at the barrel of a gun but true strength springs from the heart..
------------------------------------------------------221Abandon anger,be done with conceit,get beyond every fetter.When for name & formyou have no attachment — have nothing at all —no sufferings, no stresses, invade.222When anger arises,whoever keeps firm controlas if with a racing chariot:himI call a master charioteer. Anyone else, a rein-holder — that's all.223Conquer anger with lack of anger;bad, with good;stinginess, with a gift;a liar, with truth.224By telling the truth;by not growing angry;by giving, when asked,no matter how little you have:by these three thingsyou enter the presence of devas.225Gentle sages,constantly restrained in body,go to the unwavering statewhere, having gone,there's no grief.226Those who always stay wakeful,training by day & by night,keen on Unbinding:their effluents come to an end.227-228This has come down from old, Atula,& not just from today:they find fault with one who sits silent,they find fault with one who speaks a great deal,they find fault with one who measures his words.There's no one unfaulted in the world.There never was, will be,nor at present is foundanyone entirely faultedor entirely praised.229-230If knowledgeable people praise him,having observed him day after dayto be blameless in conduct, intelligent,endowed with discernment & virtue:like an ingot of gold —who's fit to find fault with him? Even devas praise him. Even by Brahmas he's praised.231-234Guard against angererupting in body;in body, be restrained.Having abandoned bodily misconduct,live conducting yourself well in body.
Guard against angererupting in speech;in speech, be restrained.Having abandoned verbal misconduct,live conducting yourself well in speech.
Guard against angererupting in mind;in mind, be restrained.Having abandoned mental misconduct,live conducting yourself well in mind.
Those restrained in body — the enlightened —restrained in speech & in mind — enlightened —are the ones whose restraint is secure.
Anger
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #69 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 14:37:51 PT
Patrick
I don't know any americans that chop off heads but they do that in our allies country. They don't seem to mind and we don't do anything about it.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #68 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 14:22:12 PT
lombar
I think our job is largely as communicators, we write our thoughts and music and try to express ideas that others will understand, and we listen to learn from others and improve our understanding.To do this, without anger or grief, I fear may be impossible. It is one thing to have compassion and speak of it, but to relate to another human being on their own emotional levels we must have the compassion to feel those emotions themselves, to feel the anger and the grief which are part and parcel of the experience of loss and injury.To me compassion is that sense of feeling what another feels, it is to relate as an injury done to ourselves and to share in the feeling.I believe that as a man I must have all human emotions, and suppress none, but for reasons of immediacy that I must act in some way. But I should not avoid any kind of feeling if it tells me how another feels because that is how I may have compassion with that person. That these emotions can lead to negative actions is where the blockade is for me.Think of consoling a grieving widow whose husband was killed by a police officer in a mistaken drug raid. Do you have compassion for her without feeling her pain? And it is not a thing you feel for a few minutes and then forget, you hold that within you so that you always have compassion for her. So there is anger and grief (and rage, and a lot of things).That's my feeling about it.
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Comment #67 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 14:08:21 PT
lombar
Thank you, that was very helpful. I like sharing mental models with people because even though I know as well as you that the words are only metaphors, they can be the means to convey the underlying truth when spoken and heard between similar minds.Peace and compassion.But what the culture teaches, what people are taught to believe, is joy as the goal. And this keeps them ever unsatisfied but willing to subjugate themselves for the promise of a future reward. Like a carrot, before the horse.When all we want is peace and compassion, love and kindness, and that is Heaven.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #66 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 13:56:22 PT
Patrick
If given the time and skill level to suddenly prevent someone from chopping your neighbor’s wife’s head off for being a woman that left her home unescorted by a male how would you react?1. Stop the attack2. Allow the attack to happen3. blow yourself up at a bus station4. Sit in a corner like Gandhi and do nothing5. Other (please explain)Number 3 is right out, and don't accuse Gandhi of sitting in a corner and doing nothing. You trivialize someone who did a great deal and that insults both him and everyone who respects what he did and how.How do I know the attack is going to happen? Am I deceived with lies by people who want me to go in and kill the man. Am I responsible for killing an innocent man if I do so and then find out it was a lie? There are far too many things that could be wrong with the scenario you present, and perfect knowledge can never be assumed.You killed people for the state, because you believed lies. And you did not intend to kill wrongfully, but it was wrong. That is what I believe. I don't say that with condemnation, and it is something you can be forgiven as all things can be, but we should be honest about our mistakes and admit when we were wrong.If this offends you, I'm very sorry.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #65 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 13:56:11 PT
global_warming
You're welcome. He just got on the bus before you. He'll catch up with you later on I believe.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #64 posted by global_warming on July 02, 2006 at 13:53:36 PT
Thanks Fom
I will be looking for himat the Rainbow Bridge,
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #63 posted by lombar on July 02, 2006 at 13:50:05 PT
whig
PTB means 'powers that be'.Could you please describe what compassion is in your own words? It is not grief and it is not anger, it is something else that remains.Mental and emotional states can only be described by metaphor. It is a projection of a real phenomena into another medium. The natural 'medium' for compassion is the heart/mind/soul thus any attempt I make to describe it would be 1 d projection. The closest I can think of to describe what I am saying is think of a cube.Now draw the cube. This drawing is a 2-d projection, a shadow of the real cube. Likewise, any description of 'love', 'compassion', 'joy', or 'equinamity' can only be a projection. Since most peoples perception of reality is like a reflection of the actual reality, distorted through their filters of mental conditioning, the illusions are often more comforting than the reality.Can you describe to me exactly what is blue? Assume I look at blue all the time but have no perception of 'blue'? At least with sense objects, one person can point at a thing and say 'blue' then our mind can perceeive what differentiates it from 'black'. Compassion is neither the anger nor the greif but what those may arise from. What is it that makes one angry at injustice? Sad at sight of suffering? See I can't point into your head and say "there is compassion".. I can only experience my own.But there is still grief and anger in me while there is also compassion. Should I lose the grief and anger completely I might be unmotivated to do something. Should there not be a balance?Well, from what I have read, I can't speak from experience because I still have some craving, I do not believe I am 'enlightened' as I have read but that would be 'nirvanna' and just because you are neither angry nor sad, does not mean you would not act. The whole point is to uproot cravings that cause anger or grief(or lust,greed..) so that there is peace. They describe it like 'relief', like extinguishing a fire, more than 'joy' for joy itself is impermanent, craving for it and absence of it are dukkha(unsatisfactory), and it is not self. Also, it may be that you do not 'lose' anything, you just pre-empt the suffering caused by allowing negative states of mind. If you examine anger or greif objectively, they are negative states, not happy states. Actions undertaken motivated by negative mental states can generate negative karmic seeds for future suffering. However I tend to think that one can eliminate the root causes of suffering within oneself thus never experiencing the negative states once uprooted. I sure am not there ....
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #62 posted by global_warming on July 02, 2006 at 13:46:54 PT
5. Other (please explain)
I think George Bush is a genius,He will totally bankrupt this American Big Government,An end all this bloated interference..
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #61 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 13:45:49 PT
global_warming
I'm so sorry. It is so hard when we lose a pet that we love.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #60 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 13:42:01 PT
I found a parrot in a tree today
Her name is Pollyanna
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #59 posted by global_warming on July 02, 2006 at 13:22:51 PT
i buried my little dead dog today
His name was Bubba,
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #58 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 13:20:29 PT
How it reads to me whig…
I guess I share the same definition of “a martyr” as FoM in the sense that I also see a suicide bomber blowing himself up in a pizza shop for Allah as a martyr for his cause or belief or whatever it is that motivates him to such extreme violence.Unlike that martyr my cause is simple. I will defend myself.
I will defend my family, my friends, and members of my community from the mental mind set that would blow up themselves and innocent lives. I call what I would do “self defense” rather than “advocating” blood. The idea is to stay alive. By surrendering my life, I did not mean I would commit suicide. I meant that I would respond to the aforementioned defenses with lethal force it that is what it took to remain alive. That is what I did many years ago by volunteering to serve in the armed forces of my nation. I was willing to put my life on the line in defense of our way of life this thing we call freedom.I realize that you and I may be quivering over the means to an end. But let me ask you this if I may? If given the time and skill level to suddenly prevent someone from chopping your neighbor’s wife’s head off for being a woman that left her home unescorted by a male how would you react?1. Stop the attack2. Allow the attack to happen3. blow yourself up at a bus station4. Sit in a corner like Gandhi and do nothing5. Other (please explain)
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Comment #57 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 13:20:13 PT
lombar
Could you please describe what compassion is in your own words? It is not grief and it is not anger, it is something else that remains.But there is still grief and anger in me while there is also compassion. Should I lose the grief and anger completely I might be unmotivated to do something. Should there not be a balance?Also what does PTB stand for?
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #56 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 13:13:29 PT
One More Thing
Just because I see something a certain way doesn't mean I think it is the right. There I feel better.
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #55 posted by lombar on July 02, 2006 at 13:07:39 PT
We live
..under a rigid inflexible heirarchy that is falling fast into fascism because the average people are more concerned with the new episode of 'friends' and refuse to believe that the laws have been twisted away from their intent to serve the greedy. The letter of the law is adhered to assidously while we disagree about the spirit. What is freedom? What is liberty? How is big government a threat to these things? How can freedom exist when the 'world' will be 100% owned?Since the war on drugs has been so successful in eroding peoples rights, dividing and marginalisig large segments of the population, the war on terror ate up even more at the same time creating 1 billion potential enemies throughout the world. You need 'anti-terror' laws to deal with the people when they wake up to the fact that they are ruled by a criminal syndicate, the velvet glove hides an iron fist. Cannnabis users have seen the reality since the 70s... your liberty is what the state defines it to be... hence the state becomes the virtual body that 'absolute power' becomes invested in rather than the people who must live with the real results of the actions of the virtual body.I read the US constitution once. American culture is pervasive in Canada, we really are not that much different. Fewer guns, medicare, but essentially ruled by fiat currencies via the global banking cartels. Our velvet gloves are thicker and we don't incarcerate people forever for trifles but we are enjoying the same culture in Canada. Energy hogging, wasteful, fat with wealth but poorly distributed.Somewhere in the Abidhamma, The Path of Purification, there was a section on what they called the near and far enemies of the 'four divine abidings' love, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equinamity. These emotional/mental states are associated with meditative absorbtions and this was all mapped out. It's funny that all that sticks after 6 years but the only near and far enemies I remember are those of compassion . It's near enemy was anger, its far enemy was grief. I could have that reversed but either way, this can be directly realized. When we see suffering do we not feel anger at a cause of suffering, or grief at the suffering of another? It's a balance, should one feel compassion, either of those (or both) may destroy your calm.Why does that matter? Because the basis of 'freedom' lies with compassion for others. Freedom cannot be without insuring that it is not usurped from individuals, not circumvented by prevarication, deception, and war. Not undermined by constant wrangling. When an enemy of compassion overtakes the mind, clear rational thought becomes far more difficult. Today, for the second time, my sister and I had to try and catch one of our semi-feral cats. He was a homeless cat that used to have a home, a big orange tabby, just like Morris. My sister fosters them for the local humane society, we have several cats because they do not kill them here, we just keep them. Occasionally we trap a new one... this orange tabby had a golf-ball sized cyst on his back that was excised about 2 weeks ago. He got 8 stitches and now they have to GO... so today we tried to box him again. He KNOWS when we have the intent to cage him but the thing just has to be done.... after 2 YEARS of being here he just started to trust us. Today he was terrified, he actually took a swat at me. It made me angry that we could not catch him, it has to happen so we eliminated his hiding places... he was just panting with terror... we quit. He has to go to the vet but he knows and remembers the last time. Do you think the PTB think that way about us? Could they be so arrogant? Wild animals that run away from submitting to their 'procedures'? Drug users rounded up, caged like animals, and forced to 'clean up' for our own good? Well sometimes I think the paternalism stretches to animal husbandry sometimes.Happy 4th of July!
[ Post Comment ]
Comment #54 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 13:06:33 PT
whig
You look at it one way but I look at it another way that's all.
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Comment #53 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 12:59:37 PT
FoM
Those aren't martyrs at all, because they are not choosing between death and betrayal, they are simply suicide bombers.
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Comment #52 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 12:58:37 PT
Martyrdom
It's a tricky thing I'm trying to express. If you are captured and are a victim of circumstances that you cannot help but be a martyr or betray others, you must be a martyr.If you can avoid being a martyr without betrayal, never be a martyr. We should revere the memory of those who died in such a way. I do, but not for the blood they shed, rather for the integrity which they carried. The blood is horrible, hateful, murder. It is the death of a man or woman who served his fellow and died for it. It is the death of an innocent. Despise it.But remember their names. They are our heritage, may they never be our future.
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Comment #51 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 12:55:07 PT
Martyr
When I read about martyrs I thought of the people who are blowing themselves up to keep us from taking over their country.
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Comment #50 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 12:52:05 PT
Patrick
"Free men like me do not consider ourselves martyrs because we would gladly surrender our lives to prevent the intolerant from taking your life. Do you see this fundamental difference? I sincerely hope so?"Martyrs are not the same as slaves. Martyrs are free men who gladly surrender their lives to prevent the intolerant from taking other lives. You are saying that you are a martyr, or are willing freely to become one.That's how it reads to me, anyhow.
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Comment #49 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 12:48:16 PT
whig
This why freedom isn't free. Freedom, historically speaking, unfortunately is only purchased with the blood of a "free" person's fight against the intolerant person's intrusions.
I don't agree because I think you are advocating blood when we should seek an end to bloodshed. No war. By our sweat, but not by our blood sir. No martyrs are requested.I enjoy your commentary immensely but I have to disagree.I don’t advocate blood. It is the intolerant person who has no qualms about taking my life or yours for ideological or political differences that advocates the blood letting. Free men like me do not consider ourselves martyrs because we would gladly surrender our lives to prevent the intolerant from taking your life. Do you see this fundamental difference? I sincerely hope so?I certainly do not wish to die for naught.
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Comment #48 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 12:39:18 PT
Meanwhile back to the Article
I had a professor once remind me never to believe everything that I read. While it is obvious to me and probably the majority that is true this article serves as a reminder that you have to use your critical mind to review and analyze everything that is written no matter the source.To say that 259 of our representatives merely scoffed at medical marijuana patients with a NO vote on the bill House Resolution 5672 is entirely inaccurate.BTW: Thanks mayan for the link to the roll call vote on this resolution. Via that link I discovered that the guy I voted for in Congress was a NO voter of this bill. I voted for my congressional representative because he typically mirrors my views. I live in a medical marijuana state so I became concerned this morning why his decision was a NO vote?HR 5672 had 75 amendments to it. By voting NO my congressman and 258 other elected representatives not only turned down the medical marijuana component which was the 46th amendment to this bill he also voted NO to the following few other items as well:To increases funding for the Violence Against Women Act by $10,000,000.To increase funds for the direct and guaranteed loan programs by $40 million.Amendment that sought to increase funds for the FBI by $40 million.An amendment to increase funding for the Edward Byrne Memorial Justice Assistance Grant program by $532 million.Amendment increases funding for the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program by $25 million.An amendment to increase funding (by offset) for the Department of Justice Drug Court Programs by $5 million.Amendment adds $12 million to the COPS bulletproof vest program.Amendment provides an additional $2 million for the West Coast commercial salmon industry.I could go on and on but so does the PORK in this horrible bill and if you want to see it for yourself here is the link to the individual amendments…http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/L?d109:./temp/~bday6Np:1[1-75](Amendments_For_H.R.5672)&./temp/~bdErZ5My point is that I could theoretically write an article that condemns my Congressman for being in favor of violence against women since he voted against additional funding for those victims. By the same token my Congressman is also on the side of criminals. He failed to approve more bullet proof vests for police officers and he also failed to approve more money for the FBI. He must be pro crime! To call the 259 NO voter’s murderers is a bit extreme. You need to take into consideration all of the things that a NO vote said NO too. Personally, I think the NO vote on this particular bill was the right vote unless you are BIG FAN of the government’s ability to excel at wasteful spending! PORK PORK PORK Why pass another crappy spending law? Just so we can save medical marijuana at #46? Then what about #52, or #12, or #75 and on and on! You get the picture by now I hope?We can always work to get medical marijuana recognized and the fact that it was even an amendment to this bill is in fact a sign of hope for the future!To know how our government works is to know how to make OUR government work for We the PEOPLE.
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Comment #47 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 12:36:40 PT
Patrick
I agree. Tolerance is the only way to achieve peace and freedom.
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Comment #46 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 12:34:14 PT
Patrick
Peace and freedom for all can only come about with tolerance in our society rather than intolerance. IMHOI agree completely.This why freedom isn't free. Freedom, historically speaking, unfortunately is only purchased with the blood of a "free" person's fight against the intolerant person's intrusions.I don't agree because I think you are advocating blood when we should seek an end to bloodshed. No war. By our sweat, but not by our blood sir. No martyrs are requested.
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Comment #45 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 12:28:10 PT
Well said FoM
Peace and freedom for all can only come about with tolerance in our society rather than intolerance. IMHOThis why freedom isn't free. Freedom, historically speaking, unfortunately is only purchased with the blood of a "free" person's fight against the intolerant person's intrusions.
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Comment #44 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 11:58:43 PT
Patrick
Happy 4th of July to you too. As far as living like either or I want to live in peace with all mankind. That would be what freedom means to me this day.
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Comment #43 posted by Patrick on July 02, 2006 at 11:48:17 PT
Happy 4th All!
Despite all of the problems that we have in this country, this weekend is the celebration of our independence as a nation and the freedoms that declaration some 200 years ago has granted us all. One of those freedoms has been the right to disagree with others including our very own government. On the whole, we live under a system whereby we can disagree with some degree of civility (our courts) as opposed to a system whose ideology, quite simply, is and suggests rather strongly, “Death to ALL infidels.”The reality of this day and age begs the question, which ideology would you prefer to govern the People?
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Comment #42 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 11:22:13 PT
FoM
He's walking, in a sense.All of us are carrying on in our own ways. I don't want to offend you but I think that when Jesus was here as a man he was a man and he was like us. He wasn't here being impervious to human emotions, all of them. He was capable of hate, but he chose love. He had free will just like we do.He was just like us, maybe. Going and saying things and helping people. Doing what he could. And the truth is he was also telling people that cannabis was the way to help.And that's why he was stopped, he was killed, and his killers made up all kinds of stories to justify it when they were condemned, and they killed the Christians who carried on the word and the sacrament and they perverted the words to their own purposes, burning and destroying all others.That's what I believe.And I can't speak for any of us but me, but I'm looking forward to Berkeley.
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Comment #41 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 10:59:24 PT
whig
Yes you are moving to the woo bad bad place. To me the west coast and many of the cities out there are like what the Garden would have been like. I was thinking about Jesus today. If He was walking the earth now and He had time to do what He would want to do what would He do? Would He visit a Democrat or Republican Convention?Would He want to Hear Jerry Falwell preach?Would He want to check in on the street people?Would He want to visit people in prison?What would He do?
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Comment #40 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 10:51:07 PT
OT: Moving rant of the afternoon
So I'm moving to Berkeley, and it occurs to me that the idea in the minds of the rightwinger pharisee Santa Christian prohibians is so fundamentalist literalist in their readings of the Leviticus that it consumes them.And it further occurs to me in their context, that Berkeley (and to a lesser extent the whole of San Francisco) is really Sodom to them. They revelled in calling Saddam Hussein "Sodom" by the way, too. In fact, everything is explained very well in this, "culture war", crusade, world war.So with that fixation, on Sodom, we should call them: Sodomites.Sometimes I just like turning it around because I know it will enrage them but it is absolutely true, they are serving the wrong image of God, they are serving "Selfish-God" -- Samael, the Blind God. The aspect which is the deceiver, and the destroyer.Judge the tree by its fruit.There is no more important point. You can never read what I say or what they say and other than looking at the fruit know that there is a difference. We Christians of Cannabis are as much entitled to speak in the same language as they, and there is no judging the trees by looking at them.We do not sell death. We do not sell lies.Judge the tree by its fruit.
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Comment #39 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 09:58:44 PT
WolfgangWylde
I guess you're right and that is the game of politics. That is why voting for me is for the one that seems closest to my beliefs and no more then a means to an end I hope.
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Comment #38 posted by WolfgangWylde on July 02, 2006 at 09:46:35 PT
The Republicans have the same...
...mantra when it comes to Third Party voting. "A vote for a Third Party is a vote for Democrats". It's how they keep us locked in this nice little 2-Party box.
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Comment #37 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 09:11:21 PT
whig
I only mean how I see it. It's how I think more then what they actually believe or do. I am not into politics so my feelings are only feelings.
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Comment #36 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 08:35:43 PT
FoM
"A vote for the LP is a vote for the Republicans."I don't think that's really accurate. It's kind of like the people who used to say that a vote for Ralph Nader was a vote for George Bush. Or that a vote for anybody but "my favorite candidate" is a vote against "my favorite candidate." Including those of us who abstain for principled reasons.The LP is seriously deluded, I think, but that doesn't mean they are universally Republican-lite. Some of them are. Some aren't. But either way a vote for the LP by someone who would otherwise have voted for a Republican is a vote the Republican did not get. What makes you think that they would have voted for the Democratic candidate?And really it is a strong tendency within the LP to be more allowing of a "National Security State" because they believe that it is a "proper role of government" to provide for the common defense, but to be absolutely condemnatory towards social welfare spending because they believe it is not a proper role of government. So even taking it on that basis, I'd say that as many as 90% of LP voters who would otherwise be compelled to choose between the major two candidates would typically choose the Republican.
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Comment #35 posted by whig on July 02, 2006 at 08:21:12 PT
July 2
On July 2, 1776 the United Colonies of America officially became the United States of America.It was July 2, 1776 that John Adams thought would be celebrated by future generations of Americans writing to his wife Abigail Adams on July 3, 1776: "The Second Day of July 1776 will be the most memorable Epocha, in the History of America. . . . It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires, and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more."After the resolution was passed the Continental Congress turned to the debate over the Committee of Five's Declaration of Independence. Time was short and Congress adjourned until Wednesday the 3rd. The debates of July 3rd and 4th altered the manuscript and with these changes the Declaration of Independence was approved. Thomas Jefferson was disappointed by the "depredations" made by Congress writing: The pusillanimous idea that we had friends in England worth keeping terms with, still haunted the minds of many. For this reason those passages which conveyed censures on the people of England were struck out, lest they should give them offense. The clause too, reprobating the enslaving the inhabitants of Africa, was struck out in compliance to South Carolina and Georgia, who had never attempted to restrain the importation of slaves, and who on the contrary still wished to continue it. Our Northern brethren also I believe felt a little tender under these censures; for tho' their people have very few slaves themselves yet they had been pretty considerable carriers of them to others."http://www.thedeclarationofindependence.org/
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Comment #34 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 07:46:21 PT
Afterburner
I will vote this fall against the war. The only way I feel I can vote against the war is to vote for the Democrats. I know some Democrats are for the war but not like the Republicans. I believe that all I can do is vote for the one that is a little more like how I think then the other. That doesn't mean I am pro any party.
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Comment #33 posted by afterburner on July 02, 2006 at 07:14:50 PT
FoM: Green or Democrat or Write-in
In the upcoming election, if you believe voting is of any use, we need to send a clear anti-War on Iraq (because of the government lies) and pro-Medical Cannabis (because of the government lies) message to Congress.ekim, (if you are reading), I need to contact you privately. If you give FoM permission to send me your email address, I have important questions to ask you.
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Comment #32 posted by afterburner on July 02, 2006 at 06:56:51 PT
It Looks Like the Libertarian Party Is Sowing ...
the Seeds of its own Destruction.whig #27: "But the pro-war contingent, the ones who will support this administration in light of torture, deception and death, well it's no longer acceptable in my opinion and I'd make that clear."global_warming #29:"The Libertarian party stands on a platform of less government and more freedom. The party also advocates for the end of drug prohibition, according to its Web site."
Saying you are for less government and then supporting Bush's big government war and waste is self-contradictory. This party is not being true to their own beliefs. How can anyone trust such a party? Individuals, yes. The Libertarian Party needs to get real with itself!
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Comment #31 posted by WolfgangWylde on July 02, 2006 at 06:47:31 PT
Want a laugh?
This has the right-wingers in an uproar. They slit their own throats, and they know it.High court's Calif. pot ruling also outlaws homemade machine gunsSAN FRANCISCO (AP) - A recent Supreme Court ruling that Congress can ban homegrown marijuana for medical use in California led Friday to the reinstatement of an Arizona man's overturned conviction for having homemade machine guns. Prosecutors in both cases invoked the Constitution's interstate commerce clause, despite the fact that the cases centered on items that were homemade, or homegrown, and didn't involve commerce or crossing state lines. The courts ruled, however, that the items still can affect interstate commerce and therefore can be regulated by federal law. In the machine gun case, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday reinstated the convictions of Robert Wilson Stewart, 67, of Mesa, Ariz. The three-judge panel reversed its own previous decision to overturn the convictions because he never tried to sell his weapons or transport them over state lines. Federal agents raided Stewart's house in June 2000 and found five machine guns, which Stewart argued did not violate the congressionally mandated ban on certain assault weapons because they were homemade and not for sale. The appellate court initially agreed with Stewart and overturned his convictions in 2003, ruling the interstate commerce clause did not apply. The three-judge panel, however, was ordered by the Supreme Court to reconsider its decision after the justices ruled in 2005 that the federal government could prosecute medical marijuana users and their suppliers even if their activity was confined to California. In the marijuana case, brought by Oakland resident Angel Raich, the majority of Supreme Court justices ruled that the interstate commerce clause makes California's medical marijuana law illegal. The court said homegrown marijuana confined to the state still can affect the entire national market for the drug, allowing for federal regulation. The same rationale was applied by the appeals court in the homemade machine gun case.
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Comment #30 posted by FoM on July 02, 2006 at 06:44:10 PT
Afterburner and Whig
I know that Steve Kubby ran for Governor of California as a Libertarian. I never heard of that party before I got on line and never heard of Steve Kubby either until well after that years elections were over. I am not any political party but I was raised in the Catholic Church. People that believe in a supreme being get put in a box of being a religious right wing type person. If people would just be people and not a party or religion that would be good. I have had serious flaming over the years on CNews by Libertarians. Not since 04s election but I still get scared as we approach the 08 elections that it could start again. A vote for the LP is a vote for the Republicans. It's easy to stay within that frame for some people. I would be a Green or a Democrat. They are close in their idealism. No one in my family would talk about politics or religion since they are not really important on a personal level and cause fighting more then they don't. Just my 2 cents this morning.
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Comment #29 posted by global_warming on July 02, 2006 at 06:32:15 PT
re:Libertarians
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v06/n875/a02.html"Sarsfield said his long-held libertarian views played a role in his decision. The Libertarian party stands on a platform of less government and more freedom. The party also advocates for the end of drug prohibition, according to its Web site. "Makes sense to me.
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Comment #28 posted by whig on July 01, 2006 at 23:59:05 PT
E_Johnson
Also, it occurs to me that my remark on men and women being raised differently, obviously it is a perspective highly colored by my own particular upbringing and how I saw things. So if it doesn't make sense from your particular perspective, that's okay. I don't know for sure how common my experience is but it's the impression I do get from a lot of people.
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Comment #27 posted by whig on July 01, 2006 at 23:54:37 PT
afterburner
You're right and I'm still friends with many libertarians. Even when I may not always see eye to eye on everything I have been there and I understand that and it isn't something that we're against. It isn't quite what I am now but it informs a lot of how I think. If I'm seeming too harsh it is not that I don't like them.But the pro-war contingent, the ones who will support this administration in light of torture, deception and death, well it's no longer acceptable in my opinion and I'd make that clear.Right now the libertarian camp is somewhat split on that, however, and my point remains that it is overwhelmingly male in membership, the fact of a few exceptions does not make it less so, and I do think this is unbalancing to their perspective.
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Comment #26 posted by afterburner on July 01, 2006 at 23:31:26 PT
Just to Remind People
Steve Kubby ran for Governor of California as a Libertarian. Steve Kubby also uses medical cannabis, by necessity. Steven Kubby is married with two children. I don't know if Michele Kubby considers herself a Libertarian, but she is definitely a cannabis reformer, in her own right. Steve is sometimes angry, but often happy.
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Comment #25 posted by whig on July 01, 2006 at 22:06:11 PT
E_Johnson
Well I will say things different ways to different people. If I'm talking to you I might express myself differently than I will when I'm talking to FoM. It isn't that everybody isn't part of the same conversation, it's just that I'm metaphorically "looking" at that person when I'm saying something addressed as such. So if it doesn't make sense to you, it might make sense to FoM, and sometimes you might say something to someone else that won't make as much sense to me.I don't think I'm being simplistic at all nor am I conflating in the way you think, although it is a matter of terminology not of concept. I do not believe that the government equals the state. I do not believe the present government, as constituted, is capable of being a social government in the sense that I use that term -- a set of social expectations and behavior which allow people to work together and help one another. I could call that a "society" instead of a "government" and it would be perhaps more strictly accurate from your frame of reference but it isn't a formal difference as I use the terms. A state is a pretend-government that uses force to enact and maintain its authority. It is not social, it is anti-social. It is something which pretends to be social only to prevent an actual government (as I've defined it) to arise.If you are interested in understanding my terminology better, you might be interested to read Albert Jay Nock: Our Enemy, The State. There are online copies about. Here is one:http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/nock1.htmlThat will go a long way to describe where I stand with respect to your politically constituted state.Since words are metaphors it is impossible to avoid sometimes conflating them. Some words have multiple meanings as a consequence of that, sometimes even opposite meanings. Please keep that in mind if you think I'm confused or conflating. Do the underlying concepts conflate? That's what matters.Sorry if this seems a little sharply worded, I'm not angry at you and I'm not wanting to make you upset at me. I think it's just the online context which makes it hard to really look at one another and ask for clarification, it gets kind of accusatory sometimes and it shouldn't be taken wrongly.
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Comment #24 posted by FoM on July 01, 2006 at 16:39:51 PT
Dankhank
I remember the Shadow Convention. It's been a long time since I have heard anything about Ben Mazel and I always got him and another person from Maine mixed up.
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Comment #23 posted by E_Johnson on July 01, 2006 at 16:21:10 PT
And furthermore
"Women know how to make social organizations work, because they are more willing to depend on one another and men are taught from an early age to be completely self-sufficient. I've outgrown that but I cannot explain it to the libertarians well enough that they will understand."It's hard to understand someone when they're not making sense as much sense as they think they are.
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Comment #22 posted by Dankhank on July 01, 2006 at 16:21:03 PT
Ben ...
I met Ben Masel at the Shadow Convention 2000 in Philly.The Repubnicants were downtown and the Shadow was in west Philly.A bunch of us had some lunch at a nice restaurant. Since I had a minivan, I got elected to take Ben, his friend, Steve Hagar and a couple of others to the Liberty Bell, where I met Ed Forchoin, toked with him and called for the immediate legalization of Cannabis.I walked with Ben and his lady friend to and around the "roundhouse," as the main police station is known... cause it's round ...At the main intersection in downtown Philly at the corner of the roundhouse and the park I stood with his lady and a few others watching him gather two "free pot" signs, crossing three streets in a circle and ending up across from us, by himself, amongst about 100 policeman as they waited for instructions. He said reactions were "mixed" in the crowd.Very self-assured man ...A good day ...
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Comment #21 posted by E_Johnson on July 01, 2006 at 16:14:07 PT
whig, you're conflating government with social
"Like libertarianism, lose the entire social network because freedom is some sort of absolute that means no depending on anyone."Libertarians are not against social networks, I think they are against the idea that the government is the only social network that can help anyone, ever.A church is a social network that helps people. A community food bank is a social prorgam that helps people.There are all kinds of social programs that help people that aren't part of the government and aren't administered or controlled by the government.The problem is, when people start looking to the government to solve all of their problems, they turn politics into a very power ful - and they create the mythic powers that politicans believe they have.And they stop thinking about what they can do to solve their own problems, or how they can organize their own community or spiritual affiliation to solve their problems.The War on Drugs is a government social program. The War on Drugs is what you get when the government tries to solve a personal medical and emotional problem like addiction.The problem is, for socialists, social equals government. Socialists treat people like they're complete idots and need a paternalistic authority to tell them how to live and what to spend their money on.I am a Democrat, not a Libertarian, but I am extremely annoyed by the bitterly simplistic, rather bitchy characterizations about Libertarians that seem to be floating around now.
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Comment #20 posted by mayan on July 01, 2006 at 14:43:37 PT
More on Masel
Even the mayor seems to be on Ben's side...Police arrest Masel at UW:
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/index.php?ntid=89696&ntpid=3
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Comment #19 posted by mayan on July 01, 2006 at 14:33:12 PT
Punishers of the Dying
The 259 members of the 109th Congress who failed to vote in favor of correcting a mistake of 69-years and counting have given de-facto approval to the practice of punishing sick and dying people.The 259 murderers who voted against Hinchey-Rohrabacher belong in a cage where they can harm nobody else.Never forget the 259...Final Roll-Call:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll333.xmlTHE WAY OUT IS THE WAY IN...Lawmaker Wants UW Lecturer Fired Over 9/11 Views (vote in survey!):
http://www.channel3000.com/news/9457154/detail.htmlSept. 11 claim stirs UW probe: Instructor says U.S. planned the attacks to provoke war:
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/010706sept11claim.htmLecturer backed on talk about 9/11: http://www.madison.com/tct/mad/topstories/index.php?ntid=89596&ntpid=1Former Reagan Deputy and Colonel Says 9/11 "Dog That Doesn't Hunt":
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/010706doesnthunt.htmProfessor Jim Fetzer on Hannity & Colmes:
http://www.wingtv.net/thorn2006/jimfetzer.htmlJames Fetzer/ 911 Panel Discussion Los Angeles (video):
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/010706jamesfetzer.htmCDI: 'Pull It' Means 'Pull It Down':
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/06/cdi-pull-it-means-pull-it-down_30.htmlFBI says, ‘No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11':
http://www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060629/OPINION02/606290310/1014
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Comment #18 posted by global_warming on July 01, 2006 at 13:03:50 PT
in the meantime
"The House of Representatives recently voted down an amendment to a spending bill that would have prevented the Justice Department from spending Federal tax dollars on medical marijuana investigations and enforcement actions in those States that have decriminalized marijuana for medical use. "You have to wonder, even if you have not been born with a full engine, you have to wonder, why did these people vote this way?It is a big world, and evening supper is planet wide, why did they vote this way?
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Comment #17 posted by global_warming on July 01, 2006 at 12:30:20 PT
I have no fresh leaves
To smoke, yet I can see,This world is so wrong,Instead of Life,Their is confusion,There is warand so much violence
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Comment #16 posted by global_warming on July 01, 2006 at 12:23:42 PT
re:c13
Men and Women are different"That is so true, I don't understand how women have become the needy in this world, for have not women been the workhorse in this world?
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Comment #15 posted by global_warming on July 01, 2006 at 12:10:49 PT
re:c1
"I really resent the word Hippie being used in a bad way. "Surely fom, you can see the mindset of the opposition, hippies, also known as druggies, pot heads, wear their differences on their backs, long hair, colored tee shirts, they are different, and they choose to be different.While those gas bags in DC, who wear different clothing, and can taste the finest cut of beef, continue to vote to "..spending Federal tax dollars on medical marijuana investigations.."Those gas bags in fine clothing and finely cut hair, can only continue to vote this way, it is their pay check to their happy farm, they do not understand freedom or the American Bill Of Rights, they have no Spiritual Reference, they are Living This Life in good company.
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Comment #14 posted by FoM on July 01, 2006 at 11:42:57 PT
whig
You are so smart and wise for such a young man. I hope we get a whole generation of young folks like you to help our country.
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Comment #13 posted by whig on July 01, 2006 at 11:21:42 PT
FoM
Women and men are different, though. So it's something that we don't appreciate enough when we say that they are equal. We are equal in some ways, but we are different too. Men and women think differently. I think that men often want to keep women out of the political process precisely because women don't agree with some of the things that the men want to do. Like libertarianism, lose the entire social network because freedom is some sort of absolute that means no depending on anyone. And it's a kind of insanity, but it's an understandable reaction to the fact that the state as it is presently constituted is fully destructive of a lot of things that make a healthy community. So to say that we don't like the state, and don't perceive how to make a government that serves us instead of one that we are expected to serve, it is a particularly male perspective. Women know how to make social organizations work, because they are more willing to depend on one another and men are taught from an early age to be completely self-sufficient. I've outgrown that but I cannot explain it to the libertarians well enough that they will understand.
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Comment #12 posted by whig on July 01, 2006 at 11:16:18 PT
FoM
What's really funny is how hard it is to convince libertarians to actually try cannabis for awhile. They don't understand. It's completely abstract to them. People should have the "right" to do it but they don't want to have anything to do with it themselves. That's fine, as far as it goes, by the way. I'm all in favor of gay people doing what they do but that doesn't mean I'm signing on to become gay. So I get it, and I was a libertarian myself so I understand it from that perspective entirely. But until I got cannabis, I didn't get it. That's the key that unlocks the whole thing.
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Comment #11 posted by FoM on July 01, 2006 at 11:14:57 PT
Whig
I didn't believe many family women would think like they do. We should count when it comes to issues that are important to families but I never felt any concern. I believe women and men are equal. I always felt like they think of women more like before we became liberated. I don't want to go back to those days.
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Comment #10 posted by FoM on July 01, 2006 at 11:09:05 PT
Whig and Hope
Hope thank you. I know the name but I don't know what party he is in. Whig I understand that.
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Comment #9 posted by whig on July 01, 2006 at 11:08:19 PT
FoM
The LP particularly, it is a very male-dominated party. Women are few and far between, and those who are active are usually single. There are married men involved but their wives are not.
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Comment #8 posted by Hope on July 01, 2006 at 11:04:36 PT
87,100 hits on Google for Ben Masel search.
When we had the MAP chats he was a regular. I really liked him. That's where I got to know him. He's a longtime cannabis law reform activist. He's running for the Senate, I believe, in Wisconsin now.
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Comment #7 posted by whig on July 01, 2006 at 10:57:52 PT
FoM
I didn't believe in God when I was a libertarian.Does that explain better?
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Comment #6 posted by FoM on July 01, 2006 at 10:40:42 PT
Hope
I know his name but I don't know anything about him. Is he a republican or a democrat? Why didn't he show his identification when asked?
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Comment #5 posted by Hope on July 01, 2006 at 10:31:29 PT
Friends and fans of Ben Masel!
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v06/n870/a01.html?397
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Comment #4 posted by FoM on July 01, 2006 at 10:21:06 PT
Whig
I've never been any political party. Republicans and Libertarians seem almost identical to me. They lack a strong dedication to God (not religion) and family at least that's what I have observed with the Libertarians. How many dedicated family women are involved in the LP? I haven't seen one yet. It's seems like an angry party. Republicans well what can I say more then I have said before. I am not saying Democrats are the answer but they seem more concerned about compassionate issues.
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Comment #3 posted by whig on July 01, 2006 at 10:14:52 PT
FoM
For what it's worth, though, I was a libertarian before I was a cannabist. So it does change people. A lot of the problem is that the people who are involved in the political process are, by perceived necessity, complete abstainers and people who can say that they never ever used cannabis. They think it would hurt the credibility of their arguments if they were themselves part of our community.
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Comment #2 posted by FoM on July 01, 2006 at 09:15:50 PT
One More Comment
I checked the above web site and they are republican leaning so that's why the writer is insulting hippies. Soon they will be out of power I hope and pray. If they stay in power I can only imagine how bad it will get.We need a reform organization that isn't associated with the republican or libertarian people and maybe we will win. Cannabis is a social and moral issue not whatever they think it is.
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Comment #1 posted by FoM on July 01, 2006 at 07:53:49 PT
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I really resent the word Hippie being used in a bad way. Hippies are good not bad. Also what does he mean next year? How much more money will be wasted on what will never pass? I hate to see money being wasted. I would never consider giving any money to any organization that would try to take this any further. Let's move on.Excerpt:Despite the fact that both federalism and conservatism seem to call for letting States enact medical marijuana laws and keeping government out of people’s private lives, a majority-of-the-majority in the Republican Party refuses to recognize any comity or restraint, and the Democratic Party is sometimes too afraid to stand up for what is often viewed as a “hippie” drug. The result is an out-of-touch Congress that criminalizes the sick and dying.Oh well, maybe next year common sense will, finally, prevail in Congress again.
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