Pot Farms More Perilous Than in Past

  Pot Farms More Perilous Than in Past

Posted by CN Staff on August 06, 2005 at 07:06:58 PT
By Ken Mclaughlin and Brandon Bailey 
Source: Contra Costa Times 

California -- Bay Area pot farming is taking a frightening new turn. A state Fish and Game warden was shot in both legs and a man was killed Friday during an early morning raid on a huge marijuana garden near Mount Umunhum in a rugged, remote area of Santa Clara County.The incident came a day after Santa Cruz County authorities stamped out one of the most sophisticated pot-growing operations they have ever seen. Both operations had the hallmarks of aggressive Mexican drug cartels, which in recent years have cornered California's marijuana-growing market, state drug agents say.
"It's scary," Bob Cooke, special agent in charge for the state Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement in San Jose, said of the new trend. "Once you hit the ground they are dressed in camouflage and hide in tunnels and scurry up trees and watch us from above."On Thursday, "They all ran, but today they shot back," Cooke said Friday.An unidentified man who had been guarding the pot farm died after being hit in an exchange of gunfire during the raid, carried out by Santa Clara County sheriff's deputies with the assistance of three wardens.Friday night, sheriff's deputies and San Jose police officers were "scouring the hillsides" for his partner, a sheriff's spokesman said.The injured Fish and Game warden was identified as Kyle Kroll, 25, of Mountain View, who has been a warden for two years. He was airlifted to Santa Clara Valley Medical Center, said Steve Martarano, spokesman for the state Department of Fish and Game.He underwent surgery Friday afternoon and was listed in stable condition.Terrance Helm, a sheriff's spokesman, said Kroll was confronted by two armed men about two hours after deputies launched the raid. "That's when the shooting began," he said.Helm said he couldn't disclose specifics -- such as how many shots were fired, or what led to the shooting. Helm said he couldn't rule out that Kroll was hit by "friendly fire," but believes that it's "highly unlikely."Kroll was evacuated by helicopter about 10:30 a.m. The suspect, Helm said, died while sheriff's deputies waited for a SWAT team "to secure the area." At the time, deputies didn't know if there were any other armed men in the area, Helm said.The approximately 3-acre pot farm is on the eastern slope of Mount Umunhum in the 16,879-acre Sierra Azul open --space reserve. Owned by Midpeninsula Regional Open Space District, it is closed to the public.More than 10,000 marijuana plants, 4- to 5-feet tall, were discovered. The district staff had reportedly alerted authorities to the pot farm, which is in an area so remote it takes about an hour to hike from the nearest road.In Santa Cruz County, the Marijuana Enforcement Team on Thursday confiscated 4,700 plants off a hiking trail in Big Basin Park.Because of the intricacy and size of that operation, authorities said they suspected the garden was run by a Mexican cartel. Sheriff's deputies said on Thursday they found four camp sites arranged around a centralized cooking area amid manicured rows of pot plants.State drug agents say the Mexican cartels have boosted both the potency of marijuana and the propensity for violence."It used to be they would booby-trap the gardens and leave them unattended, or they would just run," Cooke said. "Now they're becoming more confrontational because ... it's much better dope, and there's a lot more money involved."Authorities say the multi-billion-dollar cartels have found it's safer and more lucrative to grow marijuana in the United States than to have to smuggle it into the country. Instead, the cartels smuggle in Mexican guards, hand them rifles and shotguns, and order them to shoot anyone coming by."They spend all their time in the gardens and speak little on no English and are told to defend the garden whatever way they can," said Robin Schwanke, a spokeswoman for state Attorney General Bill Lockyer.Investigators say Mexican nationals are often paid low wages to guard the plots. The two suspects Friday were described as Latino, but their nationality was unknown.The Attorney General's Office estimates about 85 percent of the pot is now grown by Mexican cartels.Martarano said Fish and Game wardens are often requested to assist in marijuana eradication raids "because of the potential environmental crimes associated with these kinds of operations." The crimes include stream-bed degradation and water pollution, often caused by the use of an excessive amount of water.Authorities have seen a dramatic jump in marijuana planting in recent years. Agents increasingly have found the crop growing in secluded public areas such as the Sequoia National Forest. The same cartels also are involved in trafficking methamphetamine, cocaine and heroin. Agents say pot is a seasonal business for the cartels since it's mostly grown in the summer.Helm said more than three dozen deputies and officers from other police agencies were searching for the armed man throughout the day Friday. The search through the low brush and steep terrain was made more difficult because ridges blocked cell phone transmission and other communication. The officers lugged satellite phones to try to get around the problem.The Mount Umunhum area has multi-million-dollar houses, as well as smaller, less well-kept homes.Authorities say such marijuana operations present a danger to people who hike through the area because they risk stumbling across marijuana plots run by armed criminals."It's scary for everybody," said Karen Sepahmansour, a nearby resident who had just returned from a hike in the same hills where officers were hunting a fugitive with a gun."We're calling our neighbors," she said, "and telling our kids to stay in the house right now." Source: Contra Costa Times (CA)Author: Ken Mclaughlin and Brandon BaileyPublished: Saturday, Aug 06, 2005   Copyright: 2005 Knight RidderContact: letters cctimes.comWebsite: -- Cannabis Archives

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Comment #69 posted by global_warming on August 16, 2005 at 16:05:03 PT
Thanks Whig, for that link about Tobacco.Thanks to the Rev Jim, your strength and vision will be a beacon and
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Comment #68 posted by Had Enough on August 09, 2005 at 06:32:50 PT
Comment 64
Whig writes:"Nuh-uh. No. Do not put trust in politicians, do not give power to them that seek it. Give not your consent to be ruled by men with guns and laws that profit a few at the expense of the many. Look within, not without, for authority, and it will be given you, to do what is right and good, and to abstain from that which is wrong."With all due respect, I have to disagreeTelling your politicians what is on your mind is not giving consent to be ruled. In contrast it is telling them if they want to continue their job they had better listen to those who put them in office. The only thing a politician fears is their loss of an election.The men that rule with guns and laws to profit a few at the expense of many can be replaced by what happens at the polls. It is not the systems fault; it is the people with twisted ideas and saddened intents that have their place in the system.This country still belongs to WE THE PEOPLE, and we people can have an impact.
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Comment #67 posted by whig on August 09, 2005 at 00:21:04 PT
OT: Tobacco
I want to bring your attention to this issue, though so often demonized by cannabists, tobacco is not our enemy, and we had better learn what happened to this sacred herb if we want to be prepared for what is to come when and if cannabis is "regulated" and manufactured by the corporations who would defile it with chemicals and industrial processes. This should not be our aim, and we should not be satisfied to accept it.Please click through this link and read.
Tobacco defilement
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Comment #66 posted by whig on August 09, 2005 at 00:12:30 PT
Reverends, Prophets and Angels
Light us on our way, We are here.Listen to our voices, We speak the truth.Do not give in to fear, Trust in love.The world will not end, Life is eternal.Keep faith, I love you.
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Comment #65 posted by whig on August 09, 2005 at 00:04:38 PT
Comment #51
Reverent Jim,I am with you 100%.Michael.
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Comment #64 posted by whig on August 08, 2005 at 23:58:48 PT
Comment #44
Had Enough writes:"Now go register to vote and go to the polls, and get everybody you can to do the same. Tell your politicians what is on your mind, and let them know you and others will support candidates of like-mindedness."Nuh-uh. No. Do not put trust in politicians, do not give power to them that seek it. Give not your consent to be ruled by men with guns and laws that profit a few at the expense of the many. Look within, not without, for authority, and it will be given you, to do what is right and good, and to abstain from that which is wrong.
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Comment #63 posted by whig on August 08, 2005 at 23:54:38 PT
Comment #43
Jim Lunsford, you have it right precisely!
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Comment #62 posted by kaptinemo on August 07, 2005 at 17:10:54 PT:
They always act soooo surprised
The dynamics of what happens when you create a situation when the Mom & Pop growers are forced out of the competition by the violence Organized Crime brings are well documented. This is an evolutionary process, where the less violent are destroyed, and the more violent take over. This is how Prohibition 1 came about. What they bemoan is a process which they *are largely responsible for*. The antis are looking straight at THEIR OWN HANDIWORK and they fail to recognize it. The DrugWar has, with vanishingly small exception, been largely a "Made in the USA" product. Might as well have a logo stamped on it. So, when the narco cartels take advantage of the void created by the exit of the Mom & Pop's, and said cartels have a penchant for 'wet work', why do the antis have such shocked looks on their faces and hurt tones to their voices? Don't they teach that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction in schools anymore?
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Comment #61 posted by Dan B on August 07, 2005 at 14:15:28 PT
Lightening the Mood
Say, did anyone else read "Mount Umunhum" and think this:Mount Umunhum - Da-Doo Da-Doo-Doo!Mount Umunhum - Da-Doo-Doo-Doo!Mount Umunhum - Da-Doo Doo-Doo-Doo Doo-Doo-DooDa-Doo-Da-Doo-Da Doo Doo Doo-Doo Doo!Thought I'd ask.Seriously, I think we can all agree that the violence associated with the war on cannabis is the fault of the war, not the cannabis. If the people who run big grows are getting more violent, it is in response to the war on cannabis, not in spite of it. Violence begets violence, whether the people carrying it out are American or Mexican, so let's at least agree to that and focus on ending this war so that the violence can finally come to an end. Dan B
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Comment #60 posted by global_warming on August 07, 2005 at 13:53:00 PT
tHE Light, and that next step
This post,Thanks unkat and westnyc, hope that we can meet.and touche,holding your hands,Your thoughts,Remind, how I behaved,in my shalliow existence,The violence of these border persons, is quickly reveled,by those prohibitionists, with guns, subpoenas,, and all the wrath of the law.If, we live in a world, and this world, can be controlled, using the press, and information sources, how can we be deceived, how far can we be fooled?There are many fools, in this godly existence, Many will cry,Unforgiving tears,The eternal world,Heals with a reaching hand,Embracing the Lost,Offering "water", Offering, "Balm"Offering, a path to health,A path to health,My toothless dog,Struggles for control,His tongue is forced,To fight his disease,Yet, this old and tired animal, Forgets Not,The comforts of his passage,To water, to LoveTo those who are standing by that river,Waiting to come alive,Waiting, for that Light,That Light,When your first tear,Drowns your eternal soul.
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Comment #59 posted by FoM on August 07, 2005 at 12:36:20 PT
I understand what you mean. You are nicer then me to show sympathy for a fly. I'm sitting here trying to swat one that is buzzing around my head! LOL! Seriously though if we look at how bad things are becoming in the big east coast cities seeing violence happening wouldn't surprise me. Violence is created when people are pushed into a corner and never let out of that corner. That's what brings on violence in my opinion.
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Comment #58 posted by westnyc on August 07, 2005 at 12:26:23 PT
Thanks FOM! I am a pacifist, I have to chase bees out of my cramped apartment. It can be very difficult sometimes trying to convince that little bee that the window is the best option. I always imagine that fly with the little human head saying "I'm a person and I just want to live."My point is, I still have things that I wish to protect; but, I can understand that sometimes when everything you have has been taken from you and your back is "against the wall," and a person has nothing left to lose, it is easy to change your way; and, become a person you never imagined you would ever be.
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Comment #57 posted by FoM on August 07, 2005 at 12:15:00 PT
I wish I could answer your questions but I don't know. I think if it ever gets violent it would start in NYC and D.C. I believe many people are very removed from stressed out areas so they can remain calmer even though times are hard. I have had a reason to talk with a real estate appraiser recently. I asked how did she see the housing market going. She said rural areas are growing because people who can afford to leave the east coast are leaving. Most people can't move but the trend in housing sales is moving a little west of the east coast. North or south isn't any different but west is it seems.
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Comment #56 posted by westnyc on August 07, 2005 at 11:47:41 PT
Which will it be?
I sympathize with both sides – each has a point. Personally, I think the WOD is a great social experiment to see just how much the American people will give-up; and the groundwork for the implementation of the Patriot Act. Imagine twenty-years from now when this act will be implemented like the WOD is today. Imagine the possibilities of cutting education down to the bare minimum so that we can expand our prison systems tenfold! Imagine cheating on your taxes a little and being sent to prison since they can’t determine if the money you saved is going to support terrorism. Goodbye family home, goodbye job and reputation; and, good riddance to that pesky “due process” rule of law.  Hello to a capricious testing system to find out whether you are engaging in terrorist activities while at home and away from your employer. I understand the frustration of seeing so many peoples lives destroyed by corporate power and their lackey political friends. All against us! I can’t remember the last time a news reporter actually said anything good about the ACLU - which is becoming the only voice against government corruption and its war against our Civil Liberties and the defense of the Bill of Rights. To me defending the constitution is the definition of “Patriotic.” Anything else seems Nationalistic! It’s been mentioned many times before – the need for another political party against a two party system diabolically designed to prevent it. Really, what is the Democratic Party even for? I am a union employee and this party doesn’t do a damn thing for me. In fact, last year I made less than $25,000 to live in NYC and the company I work for which isn’t even in bankruptcy wants yearly concessions of $15,000 from me. I am an educated and highly trained professional. Think of it, if the republicans can’t get support of a bill from their own party they turn to the liberals who help them pass it. I mean is Zell Miller really a democrat; or, is he a democrat in a sheep’s clothing? What about Carl Levin? Goodness! Thankfully we have the “biased liberal media” on our side!I admit I am a hypocrite! It’s true! I wish I wasn’t! For fear of retaliation and the knowledge that nobody will join me - I am afraid to speak-up about all the injustice in the world to the people that can really change it. “We the People.” However, I talk to people everyday; and, almost everyone I speak to feels the same way that I do. One day, it will get me in trouble; but it gives me some comfort and helps me feel that although hypocritical - at least I’m not too much of a hypocrite because at least I do speak-out.I really do wonder how much longer this can continue. How much longer until the WOD, especially the war on cannabis, erupts with even more extreme violence from either the government or people in the cannabis movement deemed radical? How long before our Supreme Court rules in a 5-4 or a unanimous decision that in the name of this war, it is constitutional to immediately take people clearly guilty of cannabis possession downtown and execute them by firing squad for their crimes against society? Due process isn’t necessary in the WOD, it could be like the rules for asset forfeiture – appeals not allowed. How many people will be pacifist then?Who knows? Something will eventually break, “The center will not hold.” I ponder, “Will it be through a process of peace; or, will it be through violence?”
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Comment #55 posted by FoM on August 07, 2005 at 09:23:13 PT
You're welcome. And a good afternoon to you are your family too! 
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Comment #54 posted by runruff on August 07, 2005 at 09:21:35 PT:
Hey FoM!
Gee thanx. You make me look good.Good morning to you and hubby.
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Comment #53 posted by FoM on August 07, 2005 at 09:13:10 PT
I fixed it for you and thank you.
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Comment #52 posted by Had Enough on August 07, 2005 at 09:12:11 PT
Comment 48
"Your heart is free, have the courage to follow it". BraveheartJust look at the power (energy) contained in these words !!!Thanks for the reminder runruff.
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Comment #51 posted by Jim Lunsford on August 07, 2005 at 09:07:23 PT

Failure and Venting.....
I would like to clarify a few points in this missive. While I do not advocate violence; I do not advocate using the 'system' to change the system. I no longer believe this government serves a legitimate purpose, or at least is no longer the most effective method we have at our disposal. In the early 19th century, a group of cherokee indians attempted to persuade President Jackson to intervene for years in their behalf against the state of Georgia. They were sent off to Oklahoma upon the discovery of gold on the reservation. They were using the 'system', and look at them. Instead, I believe the government has no authority over me that I don't implicitly give it. And I give it nothing! I do not wage war on it with weapons, but I do not authorize it to have any jurisdiction or sovereignty over me either. It simply has no bearing on any decision I make anymore. Who has the right to force me to submit to a government that is only interested in having me as a consumer zombie? I refuse to submit to their authority. In short, I am a non-person in this governmental system. I have rendered unto ceasar what is his, which is naught. For me, and this is my view, prohibition is only a valid choice if our goal were self-destruction. We are upon a time of choice, and that time is soon. Global warming is a daily fact, and our entire societal attitude is coming to a bifurcation point in which we will either transform into a society that is much more complex and able to lead us into a higher state of understanding, or we will self-destruct. I believe that marijuana is a central player in this process. That in fact, it is a long-standing player in the war against nature (inner god self, dualism, etc.) that has been ongoing for centuries. The dark ages are still upon us, and our societies will only awaken once we insist upon awakening. But, it is still our choice. Hopefully, I will be able to provide a clearer explanation later on. It is very much a work in process.  Thanks, Reverend Jim
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Comment #50 posted by runruff on August 07, 2005 at 09:04:15 PT:

I can spell fear. I get sloppy sometimes. How embarrassing!
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Comment #49 posted by FoM on August 07, 2005 at 09:01:00 PT

Just a Note
You all are making me feel so good with you comments. I love you guys and gals.
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Comment #48 posted by runruff on August 07, 2005 at 08:52:51 PT:

Fear vs. bravery.
"Your heart is free, have the courage to follow it". Braveheart"Prohibition is majority consent by deception". Noam Chumpsky1994: I took all the money I had that year and made a documentry vidio, "Let My People Grow". An amaturish yet entertaining and informative video. The point is I did something.1995-2000:I called radio talk shows all along the west coast and told them I was a specialist in cannabis/hemp. and the origins of the war an drugs. I got myself on dozens of talk shows. They have a hard time filling their time every day it wasn't that hard.1975-2003: I helped as many people as I could get started in the grow business. Info. loans, clones, whatever I could do.
Not smart as for my own secuity but I am a crusader.
I told my republican and christian relatives the truth about the drug war and cannabis/hemp. Some were very resistant but in time many have come around. I didn't argue or persist. Just a simple statement was all I could muster at one time sometimes But the truth sticks and will make since later.The brownshirt DEA[th] squads live and die by the budget.
kill the budget and you will eleminate the American SS.
They are only pawns in their game. The human race has always
provided a strain of the species who are willing to turn on 
their fellow man for fun or profit. The reason is not always important.They have more guns and money than all of us put together
it would be fruitless to even think about meeting them on 
their terms. That is what they are most prepared for.
To win this thing [prohibition], the war on the people, We
need to be smarter not tougher. And believe it is not to
difficult to be smarter. They rely on their bully tactics,
it is all the have. We have the truth, which is mightier?We've come a long way baby. There is light at the end of the tunnel.Namaste
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Comment #47 posted by jose melendez on August 07, 2005 at 08:52:00 PT

I've been biting my tongue for fear someone will misunderstand and react with the blindness that comes with anger, but please look in the mirror and remind yourself that something on the order of 96 percent of the world's population lives on less than the equivalent of two U.S. dollars a day.Meanwhile, you are decrying the proven methods of pacifists even as you complain (as I understand, the complaint is that you are too poor to get high?) in articulate, educated sentences from a computer connected to a global network on which you have access to so much free information and other resources that you could channel that angry energy into what for all practical purposes could be considered to be unlimited wealth.Wage peace, friend. It's what works. Fighting fire with fire will just burn you and everyone around you.
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Comment #46 posted by Had Enough on August 07, 2005 at 08:42:31 PT

Failure and Success
I'm a little high strung myself, just ask anyone around me. I find it easier to say things than to actually getting the same done, but sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. When things do not happen or when I fail, I try to evaluate what happened and use that experience to avoid it in the future. If I still fail, at least I tried instead of just giving up.Just a thought, How many Small Block Chevy motors blew up (failed) before they got the first one to work right? Since their inception, they have become the most popular motor used everywhere. I’ve seen this motor used for marine use, powering generators, for motorsports use (racing), and powering large pumps, I even saw one hooked to a rearend and one of the wheels were used as a tugging device to haul boats out of the water up on rails so they could scrape and paint the bottom.  Failure can lead to success.

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Comment #45 posted by FoM on August 07, 2005 at 07:54:25 PT

Had Enough 
Good advice. I am a very high strung person. Over the years I have blown my top more then once. It always feels good when we speak our mind and vent our anger. After it's all blurted out though I get depressed. I don't like feeling down in the dumps so I've learned to click off my anger and do something I enjoy like getting outside and see the sky is still beautiful and the birds still sing. After a little while I realize that I am not angry anymore and I can get back to important things. 
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Comment #44 posted by Had Enough on August 07, 2005 at 07:44:25 PT

Energy Policy
The negative energy anger generates can be funneled into positive energy. Looks like people are getting charged up lately. I've had to put in many extra hours doing my daily grind, and I have noticed most people have been extra wound up in the last few weeks. Moon Phase maybe. Try to take all that negative energy and focus it on something positive. Sometimes it works but not always. When it works for me I walk away feeling I might have actually accomplished something.Now go register to vote and go to the polls, and get everybody you can to do the same. Tell your politicians what is on your mind, and let them know you and others will support candidates of like-mindedness. 
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Comment #43 posted by Jim Lunsford on August 07, 2005 at 07:41:45 PT

In the mirror.....
is where the blame is. For all of us. By daring to defy the right of this dictatorship to rule over us, by standing up and saying, NO MORE, by refusing to admit they have any legitimate rule over us, we shall overcome. It is by recognition that we lose. By playing by the rules, rules written by a societal construct which no longer has any purpose (i.e. present day government). We, the people, should not depend upon a totaltarian government to provide the solution, or the method, in which we are to regain our freedom. We, the people, when ready, will not even acknowledge this government as an entity. That is when true change will come. Yes, I am very medicated at the moment. Hope this makes sense, it is part of my own evolving notions concerning society. Thanks, Reverend JimAnd no, I am not endorsing hate or war in the traditional sense. Those are the weapons of the old ways. It is through waging peace that we will evolve into a higher order. The old ways can only bring about the destruction of many species on our planet. 
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Comment #42 posted by Toker00 on August 07, 2005 at 06:17:53 PT

There is a way to do this. But you HAVE to DO it.
Why is it so hard to see the compromise? DEMONSTRATE! Don't hate. Don't shoot. Don't stab. Don't beat. DEMONSTRATE! It takes effort, backbone, and creativity. To me it is a combination of pacifism (non-violence) and activism (getting in their grill). Demonstration and Nulification can get us there. Violence will put us in the grave.No, we are not the nazies. No need to look in the mirror. But I understand your passion for immigtrants. I just wished they understood there is a legal way to immigrate.Look at the woman who is camped out just outside Bush's digs in Texas. She is IN HIS GRILL! Look at the march in Ga. for voter's rights. This is what we ALL need to do. Overwhelm uncle sam. Don't be afraid, but don't be stupid, either. Just fight the best way you know. We will all make a difference.Stand up! Stand up for your rights! Stand up! Stand up and fight!Demonstate. END CANNABIS PROHIBITION NOW! 
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Comment #41 posted by Jim Lunsford on August 07, 2005 at 05:40:30 PT

Just freaking ticked
What's this concern about the environment by the feds? Oh yeah, let's worry about the excessive run-off of the grow=ops, but let's not worry about all the pesticides they boast will really make some stoner sick when they smoke the treated plant. Great! I am a peaceful person, but I love it when these cowardly bullies (brownshirt rasict pigs) experience the fear they so often push on to our cowardly citizens. We are cowards because we accept this dictatorship! Immigrants okay to shoot? Bite me with that attitude! What we call illegal aliens are true freedom fighters. Mexicans know more about freedom than any gringo ever will apparantly. Shoot the nazis. It won't solve the problem, but it sure will feel good. However, who are the nazis? Look in the mirror if you really want to see one. We are ruled by these corporate nazis because the person in the mirror has given into fear. Prohibition is treason, and those who do not fight treason are guilty of treason as well. My rant for the day, Reverend Jim
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Comment #40 posted by OverwhelmSam on August 07, 2005 at 03:22:30 PT

Kill Them Politically, Not Literally.
The wives and children of the law enforcement officials who died enforcing the US drug laws do not deserve their fate. Adding to this growing group of destroyed families accomplishes nothing in retrospect. It is the politicians who are clearly at fault, not the law enforcement community. They are brainwashed into enforcing the law and they have no choice.I have an associate at work who is a senior police officer and he takes pride in busting the poor people who unfortunately get hooked on meth or crack, but he sees no reason to enforce marijuana prohibition other than he is required to do so by the government.We are not against the foot soldiers in the war on Cannabis, we are against the greedy corporations, their lackey politicians and the religious zealots who perpetuate this prohibition.Ghandi had it right and it's what we are doing already, simply ignore the law against Cannabis and inform the public of Jury Nullification. Take the government's power away in the Jury Trials.Dennis
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Comment #39 posted by whig on August 06, 2005 at 20:51:11 PT

Abstain from Violence
I write in concern to to the comments posted here on this thread, which seem to encourage violence. Do not do this, do not engage in it, nor encourage it, nor excuse it, for it is the path by which we become what we most despise. Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, for you should expect to be treated in the manner you would treat others.I call instead for civility, dialogue, social networking, discretion, persistance, all of these even in the face of oppression and threats. Apart even from the moral question, the practicality of putting up a violent fight with a superior force is one bound to lose, and not only is this so for your own instance but for the movement as a whole, and the acts of the few will be reflected and revisited upon the many.Do not think that it is otherwise for the oppressors either, and they do themselves no favor by continuing their violent ways. It shall end, and we shall overcome, bear along with us, and hold fast.
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Comment #38 posted by b4daylight on August 06, 2005 at 20:04:53 PT

lots of convrse here...I live in arizonaIllegals present a moral and criminal element that like cannabis has been misguided.
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Comment #37 posted by FoM on August 06, 2005 at 18:15:42 PT

Thanks EJ
I've been very busy today but not on the computer. I'm in a good mood and thinking good happy thoughts and then I see anger. I hope everyone is just stressed out. 
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Comment #36 posted by E_Johnson on August 06, 2005 at 18:09:40 PT

We have to be on guard FoM
From everything I have seen or heard in the activist world, people who advocate violence are usually from the other side, hoping to start some action they can benefit from professionaly seaking.
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Comment #35 posted by FoM on August 06, 2005 at 18:06:03 PT

Just My Thoughts
I don't understand all the anger. I really don't. I don't have any guns and when people talk about killing anyone I am set back. We never had guns and we surely never talked about using a gun on anyone for any reason. We are a country at war. Right or wrong we are losing young men everyday. Wars can be wars like Iraq or wars between neighbors over how they don't mow their lawn often enough. I haven't ever found violence to solve any problem. 
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Comment #34 posted by billos on August 06, 2005 at 17:51:21 PT

what has happened here? are all fighting over each others comments.STOP...and LOOK...........
do not let what the reality of what is really happening make you all lose your focus. 
If you lose your real focus.....they win.
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Comment #33 posted by Treeanna on August 06, 2005 at 17:43:23 PT

On the off-chance that anything on this forum was actually admissable as evidence... My BF is a lawyer, and he looked at this and said "Let them bring it on. I need the money."As long as you are not actually asking people to commit violent acts, you are not violating free speech provisions. Merely expressing a lack of symapthy, or an opinion that people who commit violent acts on others should have the same treatment applied to them, is Constitutionally protected.There is no point in toeing the line or kowtowing to these thugs anyway, since they drag you away for no reason at all now. Or just shoot you.
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Comment #32 posted by FoM on August 06, 2005 at 16:45:28 PT

Max Flowers
Maybe that is what is happening. I am not upset about Emery. He isn't the kind of person that I would follow. I think the repercussions could be great because all it takes is someone to talk that knows something and more people could get hurt. Anger isn't going to change this situation but fighting will accomplish good things for those who fight us. Remember always divide and conquer is what they want.
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Comment #31 posted by Max Flowers on August 06, 2005 at 16:39:30 PT

It (the anger) is like a force of nature occurring right now. I'm seeing it in many places. Over at it's flaring up too and long-term members are leaving in droves. I think the Emery thing is helping to catalyze it but there may be something more metaphysical going on, I'm not sure. I've decided I'm basically not going to post any significant views for a while anywhere as I am getting too riled up. Everyone needs (in my humble opinion) to step back and chill out and think about things a bit... 
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Comment #30 posted by E_Johnson on August 06, 2005 at 16:14:30 PT

Once upon a time
Back at SF State in the student association some loud guy just appeared out of nowhere saying all the same kinds of things unkat27 is saying, using the names of the people born into poverty, stirring outrage against injustice, and persuading people hopelessness rules and violence is the only answer. Later the student paper came up with evidence suggesting he'd been working for the CIA.So I'm really not enjoying this at all.
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Comment #29 posted by E_Johnson on August 06, 2005 at 16:05:18 PT

Serving baloney with your cheese
Look, I went to college in the seventies. Cheesy revolutionists like you were a dime a dozen. They helped kill all the good energy that existed back then. They helped ruin what the sixties were supposed to accomplish.There is nothing you can say to intimidate me or persuade me or seduce me or make me bow down to your philosophy because as I said, I've heard it ALL BEFORE.You're a lot more boring than you can even imagine.
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Comment #28 posted by FoM on August 06, 2005 at 16:03:41 PT

Just an Observation
I'm not sure what has some people so upset. I am not upset and generally news gets to me but why all the anger? Remember what you type can be used against you if you get in trouble. This is a public forum and I know it is read by people working for change and others who aren't.
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Comment #27 posted by Treeanna on August 06, 2005 at 15:58:56 PT

What comes around, goes around
I have read rare stories where drug cops got their homes burned down and what not.When the usual outcry for sympathy and support of the poor cops started, I wrote letters to the editor pointing out that they did the same thing to lots of people on a daily basis, and even worse. Surprisingly, a few letters that followed agreed.Seems to me that if you participate in a war, then you deserve whatever the other side throws your way.I happen to agree with the premise that growers (or anyone else, really)should shoot down helicopters, vandalize the cars and homes of drug-cops, or whatever else if they get the chance and do not put themselves at risk. I dont agree with shooting hapless game wardens, hikers, etc.
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Comment #26 posted by Hope on August 06, 2005 at 15:58:05 PT

Hmmmm...sounds like the "War" THEY declared.
"It's scary," Bob Cooke, special agent in charge for the state Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement in San Jose, said of the new trend. "Once you hit the ground they are dressed in camouflage and hide in tunnels and scurry up trees and watch us from above."
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Comment #25 posted by unkat27 on August 06, 2005 at 14:59:23 PT

I'm guessing that you were not born into poverty nor were you ever really subjected to the fascist extremes of the DEA and its loyal robots. Your pacific ways are probably protected by the wealth of your family and/or estate, or simply by the ganja-friendly environment you are lucky enough to be a part of. Many of us are not so lucky. I cannot live in a ganja-friendly community becuz -- get this, surprise, surprise -- I'm too f___kin poor! That's right. Coincidentally, all the most ganja-friendly communities and states are also the most expensive to live in. I'm not wealthy, otherwise I might live in a ganja-friendly community and be protected by an enlightened group of pacifists with political influence. But I live in a god-forsaken ignorant, backwoods redneck-dominated, religious-right fascist community where the only good thing about it is the rent is the lowest in the state! There are DARE programs planting fear and prejudice towards marijuana and its users in every kid's mind in every dang school in the area and they are in the habit of running straight to the pigs every time they don't have things their way and somebody they don't like smokes a joint. Brown-shirt brats are everywhere and I hate it! So much for the enlightened crowd of medicinal marijuana pacifits and their far-reaching influences, eh?
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Comment #24 posted by mayan on August 06, 2005 at 14:30:38 PT

Prohibition is the root cause of these shootings.Why should law enforcement personel be put in a position to have to hike through dangerous terrain just to pull up some plants? Will their actions keep anyone from obtaining cannabis? Couldn't their time and our tax dollars be better utilized? There was no reason for anyone to get shot or killed. Not one reason! Bad laws breed bad consequences.This plant, which should be free to everyone, has been made worth it's weight in gold. Expect folks to fight and die for it until prohibition is history.THE WAY OUT...9/11 CitizensWatch Co-founder Confronts Commissioner over Omission of Pakistani Wire Transfers to Atta:, Who Lost Son at WTC, Claims Bush Administration Hiding Key Financial Documents Leading To Culprits of 9/11: & Butter with Bonnie Faulkner Air Highlights of Capitol Hill Briefings on 9/11: 
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Comment #23 posted by FoM on August 06, 2005 at 14:25:29 PT

Just a Comment
I had to look up on Google what Brown Shirts were. Things are bad but they can be turned around if we try hard. We are working with our bank and a contruction crew. I'm very happy that I can have an American Dream so not everything for me is bad. We can achieve dreams if we work hard and jump thru the hoops when necessary. We have a young man on the crew that is more then a builder but a dreamer and an architect but with no degree. It's all in his mind. He is helping us with ideas of how to do this room addition and he is an example of a young person dreaming a dreaming and applying his talent. We aren't hopeless as a Nation but we do have serious problems that can be worked thru if we give it time.
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Comment #22 posted by E_Johnson on August 06, 2005 at 14:03:36 PT

You've got a theory that it's all hopeless, and you have a big fat label for what we believe in, and you want to break a few noses.Go to h***. The world has seen this act before over and over again.You can't say anything to impress me.In fact, right now you are making me sick.

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Comment #21 posted by Hope on August 06, 2005 at 13:56:14 PT

DARE program and Brownshirts
What can you expect from DARE, a program conceived, founded, and ochestrated into existence by Daryl Gates...a man who said that "All drug users should be lined up and shot." That includes your son, your neighbor, your boss, your President, your uncle, your great aunt your brother, your sister, your pastor, your plumber and many of your favorite artists. Gates is a monster.Your hairdresser, your doctor, your manicurist, your convenience store clerk, your waiter, your get the picture.
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Comment #20 posted by unkat27 on August 06, 2005 at 13:38:18 PT

Max and other Pacifists
I've got a theory i'm working on. It goes like this. No matter how much logic and reasoning we throw at the DEA fascists and their ilk, they will never give in and agree to change the laws. They enjoy the power they have too much and the profit they are raking in with it. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Words of reason alone will never move bullies and tyrants to change their ways. But surround their small party with a huge army of angry people who are sick of being bullied, and break a few noses and give some black eyes, then, they learn to respect you.But I do realize also that a great part of this whole war on marijuana is due to basic ignorance, fear, and prejudice. If we continue to let them demonize us with their DARE programs in school, scaring the heck out of our kids with BS propaganda and lies, programming young minds to become brown-shirt ratfinks ready to run to them everytime someone decides to smoke a joint, then they'll always have new recruits working for their fascist party. Young kids should not be used as the brown-shirt bullies of these fascist pigs. They teach kids to fear and hate marijuana users like they are evil invaders from outer space. That is a very wrong program and it goes against the democratic ideals of the USA. DARE should be demolished, along with the DEA. 
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Comment #19 posted by Max Flowers on August 06, 2005 at 13:04:28 PT

unkat & nuevo
It's not hate speech, sorry if it came off that way, but I really object to non-citizens (not natives, that's a different argument) coming into a state/country and setting up grows which they defend with bullets without even knowing who they are shooting at. No matter what anyone tells me, I could not expect to go to another country and grow in the woods, armed with guns, ready to shoot whoever ventured near, without some serious repercussions. When I said "take them down" I didn't mean kill the guards, I meant ruin their grows. I don't want to see people shot ever, but if hired cartel gunman are going to shoot people, even including the state cops I so dislike, I'd rather see the cops win that gun battle. I have a brother who does search and rescue work and he could easily find himself in one of these stupid shootouts while trying to save a lost hiker.Maybe I have complex and slightly twisted sense of ethics, but conversely, if a man is growing on his own private property, hurting no one, and cops come to try to take that away with guns and steal his house and property, well, I hope the landowner wins that battle (even though he really can't in reality).FoM is right, I've been mad and blowing off steam. I think I have to quit participating for a while on forums until I wind down. If people are thinking I'm doing hate speech, then it's time for a break.
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Comment #18 posted by Hope on August 06, 2005 at 11:43:58 PT

If cannabis were legal
there might be "more people willing to experiment" with it...but there would be less people dead.
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Comment #17 posted by Hope on August 06, 2005 at 11:38:59 PT

shot in the legs
The shooter probably chose not to kill, yet leave fighting....whooooaaa..."sending a message", "some sort of message", perhaps?
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Comment #16 posted by E_Johnson on August 06, 2005 at 11:36:24 PT

Snarky review of Weeds on Yahoo News
Here's the punchline:"Weeds" may smoke, but it should have inhaled.
Yahoo Weeds review
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Comment #15 posted by Hope on August 06, 2005 at 11:34:03 PT

"I am a pacifist"
I am a gentle person. If I have to fight, I fight. Up until then, I, too, wish to retain my dignity and the dignity of others.
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Comment #14 posted by FoM on August 06, 2005 at 11:28:08 PT

EJ Good Point
I have decided that no matter what would ever happen to me I wouldn't resort to violence. I am a pacifist I guess. Nothing is worth fighting for except using the pen since the pen is mightier then the sword in my opinion.
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Comment #13 posted by FoM on August 06, 2005 at 11:23:44 PT

If Cannabis Was Legal
I just read where a wife found her husband dead. He fell against a fence that was electrified. If people could grow their own like people can brew beer this would stop a lot of the problems. It's the profit that makes it more precious then gold. If it were legalized and dealt with like beer the big gardens would disappear.
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Comment #12 posted by E_Johnson on August 06, 2005 at 11:23:31 PT

The other side has been tempted into ways of evil. I truly believe it is our sacred responsibility NOT to fall into the same temptation, or otherwise the whole world might as well be lost.I mean, if the potheads start getting violent, what does hope does anyone ever have of peace?It's our job to suck it up and take it and keep our dignity intact and show what we stand for by our refusal to stand for anything less.
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Comment #11 posted by Hope on August 06, 2005 at 11:08:45 PT

That's a lie.
" they're becoming more confrontational because its much better [dope]* and there's a lot more money involved."This scenario, this violence, is caused by fear and dreaded knowledge of loss of life, loss of hope, fear of persecution and loss of dignity, or living under lock and key...with someone else holding the key, by falling into the hands of the authorities we have. In the case of this "Mexican" situation...I'm sure he wasn't working for any "cartels" without knowledge of the perils of his risky situation. He probably thought he was dying either way.At least, killed here, his body might be "found" and returned to his family.

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Comment #10 posted by Sam Adams on August 06, 2005 at 10:44:57 PT

Whether the people are immigrants or not, it's still OK to codemn violence. I wouldn't want to go on a backpacking trip and run into these guys, it doesn't matter that they're Mexican. In Canada there are biker gangs and Vietnamese gangs. During Chicago in prohibition it was Al Capone - the Italian mafia. I don't think anyone looks back on him in a positive way.I wouldn't want to run into the narcs up there either. Our laws have turned it into a war zone. It's a ridiculous sitation.  It's not a terrorist training camp up there - it's a 3-acre farm!
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Comment #9 posted by Truth on August 06, 2005 at 10:40:42 PT

who shot who
Might have been (un)friendly fire.
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Comment #8 posted by FoM on August 06, 2005 at 10:18:49 PT

You aren't going to be kicked out of this forum. Everyone is really angry and people are blowing off steam I think. 
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Comment #7 posted by runruff on August 06, 2005 at 10:17:56 PT:

Guerilla farming.
Did my first serious attempt at guerilla farming back in 1978. Since then I've been ripped off by strangers, friends, deer, gophers, leo's. I've gone down with drought.
I've had to hide from low flying helecopters, airplanes, ultralights, fortune seekers, deer hunters, hickers, you name it! I've lost my crops and had to face some cold rough winters. I've never turned to violence, never thought of it as a solution like these Mexican fellas, BUT I know how they feel!
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Comment #6 posted by unkat27 on August 06, 2005 at 10:14:23 PT

I disagree, Max. You sound quite hypocritical for a pacifist. Maybe we could learn something from these guys. They're defending their crops, something everyone should do but fail to do becuase they haven't got the guts to stand up to the bully fascists. The bully fascists win every time and laugh at the pacifists who won't even raise a hand in defense. They laugh, I tell you, all the way to the bank, and go out and do it again. Maybe they deserve a bloody nose for a change. That's about the only thing bullies do understand. How much you wanna bet, they respect these growers far more than the domestic pacifists?But oh, my, excuse me, what am I saying? Am I actually suggesting we start 'fighting back'? Oh, my, oh dear, I'll be kicked out of this forum soon and be hunted down as a terrorist. The nerve of me, suggesting people learn to 'fight' for their rights.
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Comment #5 posted by nuevo mexican on August 06, 2005 at 10:09:56 PT

Max Flowers, go join the Minutemen!
When was the last time you were in Mexico, and when was the last time you heard of the Mexican Government shooting down Americans for growing in the hills? Let me know, as I know many expats in Mexico, living in much less fear there, than Americans AND illegal aliens are here, (you were illegal when your ancestors came to this country, so you STILL are!Get it! The only LEGAL aliens in this country are NATIVE AMERICANS, so maybe you are native?There are NO illegal aliens, only humans seeking to survive outrageously criminal policies against the working poor and what's left of the middle class. WTO, The World Bank, you know the rest, whats' up with you?Yeah Max, go join the Minutemen and practice your hate speech on the border, it is not welcome at C-news! If Cannabis were legal, there would be no illegal grow ops,
not huge profits, and no violence surrounding such a peaceful plant! I thought C-News posters got this a lotg time ago, guess we have our work cut out for us!HAVE YOU HAD YOUR COFFEe YET?
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Comment #4 posted by Max Flowers on August 06, 2005 at 09:49:58 PT

The only kind of pot bust I don't object to
Personally, I see violent Mexican cartel grows, maintained by illegal aliens who will shoot anyone, as totally different from growing being done by legal peaceful citizens and I don't mind at all when they take them down. They don't have any right to be here and they give peaceful growers a bad name.How successful do you think Americans would be going to Mexico and trying to do a guerilla grow in the hills? Give me a break, they'd be murdered in five minutes.  
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Comment #3 posted by potpal on August 06, 2005 at 08:38:12 PT

be some bootleggers in dem thar hills...On the lighter side, a real fun read... Aloha.
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Comment #2 posted by Sam Adams on August 06, 2005 at 08:14:41 PT

Who could have foreseen this?
Oh my lord, violence over a black market intoxicant used by 98 million people? Gee, this situation has never happened before, who would've thought?
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Comment #1 posted by unkat27 on August 06, 2005 at 07:54:31 PT

Fighting back is last resort
Oh, right, it's okay for the DEA and their local political lackeys to violate the rights of land owners and otherwise free American citizens on the basis of their fascist laws against marijuana (which are being voted out by a majority of Americans and ignored by the feds every year) but it's not okay for those same land owners and otherwise free American citizens to defend themselves against such fascism?" they're becoming more confrontational because its much better [dope]* and there's a lot more money involved."Why can't they simply be sick and tired of having their property and rights violated by fascists that make the US look like Nazi Germany?After 25 to 30 years of fascist demonization of marijuana and its users, and almost no changes made with federal law,
maybe some people are getting sick of being pushed around by the fascists and are fighting back as a last resort. Who knows, if the feds don't listen to reason and all else fails, maybe giving them a bloody nose and a black eye will help them open their ears and hear the cries of the people they are destroying.*[dope]: usage of the word 'dope' to describe marijuana completely ignores its medicinal potential and simply implies that it makes people stupid. It is a prejudice that is not just used against the plant but against the people who use it. The implication is that people who use 'dope' are 'dopes', or 'stupid'. Alcohol makes people dumber than marijuana, why isn't it called dope?
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