U.S. Says Dutch Need To Fight Ecstasy 

  U.S. Says Dutch Need To Fight Ecstasy 

Posted by CN Staff on September 26, 2003 at 14:02:04 PT
By Anthony Deutsch, Associated Press Writer  
Source: Associated Press  

Amsterdam, Netherlands -- Faced with massive smuggling of Ecstasy, a U.S. official said Friday the Dutch government needs to give authorities the power to use wiretaps and infiltrate criminal gangs to crack down on its production. The Dutch government ``isn't serious enough'' about closing down laboratories that ship tons of synthetic drugs to the United States, said John Walters, director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy. Walters, attending a conference in Rome, spoke by telephone with The Associated Press.
The Netherlands is seen as the largest source of Ecstasy in the United States and the rest of the world. Speaking to reporters in Rome on Friday, Walters also took European countries to task for their lax punishment of marijuana use, calling their policies ``fundamentally irrational.'' Some officials in Europe are ``very vocal about their view that it's an appropriate policy to be more free about allowing drug use,'' said Walters. This is ``a fundamentally irrational health policy and social policy,'' he said, insisting that they created a new generation of drug addicts. Many European countries follow a policy of therapy instead of punishment for possession of drugs for personal use, with prison a last resort for drug users. Dutch authorities have decriminalized marijuana and concentrated police efforts on hard drugs. The Dutch insist they have pulled out all the stops against Ecstacy. But Walters' comments reflect U.S. frustration at the continuing flow of synthetic drugs from the Netherlands and Dutch reticence to employ the toughest tactics in the war on drugs. Last year, the 230-member Synthetic Drugs Unit, set up in 1998, uncovered 43 production facilities, seized more than 6 million Ecstasy pills and confiscated enough chemicals to make another 127 million pills. But Walters called those figures misleading and was critical of the Dutch for failing to give police greater authority to move against drug gangs. The Dutch have been reluctant to enact laws that could be seen as infringing on civil liberties. ``The reason you have more seizures and arrests is that the business is growing faster than the containment of that business,'' Walters told the AP. ``We have had some improved cooperation, especially with Dutch law enforcement, but there simply have not been adequate steps taken by the government of the Netherlands to control this,'' Walters said. ``There is a limited ability to use wiretap and informant information that makes it harder when you have a criminal conspiracy to enforce laws,'' he said. ``If the Dutch government would take this seriously and take the steps necessary, this would change dramatically. The fact that it hasn't is a failure to take the necessary steps and persuade the people of the Netherlands that this is a priority,'' he said. Martin Witteveen, the lead Dutch prosecutor for synthetic-drug crimes, said the criticism was not justified. ``There has been an enormous effort and we have seen a lot of results in the past year,'' he said. Witteveen acknowledged he has limits on using undercover agents. ``I have repeatedly said it would be useful to use informants, but I have to work within the law.'' The Netherlands, known for its liberal social attitudes, distinguishes between ``soft'' drugs such as marijuana, and ``hard'' drugs such as cocaine or heroin. Public heath campaigns discourage the use of hard drugs, while the use of marijuana has been decriminalized--though not legalized. Research by the government's leading drug policy think tank shows vastly lower rates of drug use in the Netherlands than in the United States. Walters called the Dutch drug model--which targets dealers and producers rather than users--``not sustainable.'' ``There isn't the same kind of concern (in the Netherlands) that when you make a dangerous addictive substance available you get more use and more addiction. It is simply a matter of not only common sense, but reality in these public areas. This is a disease.'' Source: Associated Press Author: Anthony Deutsch, Associated Press Writer Published: September 26, 2003Copyright: 2003 Associated Press Related Articles:U.S. Urges Dutch To Toughen Drug Policy of Illicit Club Drug Concocted in Netherland

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Comment #27 posted by kaptinemo on September 29, 2003 at 06:25:11 PT:
A hopefully lucid response to Lag
Lag, we HAVE had antis here before. Specifically Joyce Nalepka, masquerading as either "Mary Friend" or "Grandmother", or when she was feeling especially brave, as herself.In every instance, and I do mean EVERY instance, she has never answered a single question directly put to her. Not a one. Zero, zip, nada, nuttin'. FoM can provide you with every link to commentaries when she has ever deigned to leave her Olympian heights as a premier drug warrior mouthpiece to dirty her eyes looking in here and adding her .00000002 cents worth.The closest that she has ever come to anything even REMOTELY resembling discourse is to vaguely comment upon the demeanor of those being critical of her, without even engaging in direct responses towards those critics. Nearly every other instance of her showing up here was to either crow with the latest pebble sized 'triumph' on her side in the face of the Everest sized tragedy or to provide 'moral support' in commenting upon an anti's statement in an article.Only she knows why she demonstrates such unwillingness to engage us here. But I can hazard some guesses. I can only surmise that she knows the truth that has been evident from day one of the latest phase of the DrugWar: antis has lost the ability to debate.Press conferences are not debates. Standing on safe territory within a 'drug treatment center' and mouthing simpering platitudes is not a debate. Giving testimony on Capitol Hill with friendly legislators patting you on the head for being such a useful mouthpiece, and shielding you from harsh questions about the abject failure of the interdiction/prison efforts is not a debate.A debate is where you must justify your position. And antis know that they MUST keep distracting the public in order to prevent that debate from ever taking place, because they know that their 'kung fu is NOT strong'. They cannot, when the entire cost of everything that has been done to this country in the name of the DrugWar has beeen tabulated, justify a tenth of what has happened. They know that in a real, stand-up, knock-down debate they'de be ripped to shreds. This why, in DEAWatch, we had such an almost violent reaction to Ol' John Pee's half-hearted and wholly dishonest and dissembling offer to debate when he went to Seattle to try to sway Seattlites against I-75. Some at DEAwatch were infuriated that he would even consider such a move...but behind that anger was naked fear. They know what would happen to DEA if cannabis were legal; the need for such a huge agency would be reduced greatly...meaning all those agents a few years short of retirement, with visions of Miami and pina coladas dancing in their heads after a lifetime of ruining cannabists' lives, would themselves be facing personal disaster.Antis don't ever come here to debate, only to, as one old instructor of mine used to say, "S**t with their mouths on the floor, and 'git".
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Comment #26 posted by Mike on September 28, 2003 at 03:25:57 PT
kinda off / kinda related
This whole business of attributing every problem to drugs. Watched colin powell on Letterman saying the biggest problem in Afghanistan were the rogue Taliban forces and abundant poppy growing. What a scene.. Colin Powell saying our biggest challenge there right now is stopping the "poppy production". Yeah, squash those flowers. That will solve all of our problems. Idiots. All of them.We have seen this before, the nazis are trying to twist a rampant drug "problem" being because of the Taliban, when the controlling Taliban represented successful prohibition at its finest. You know.. the dream american utopia custom-ordered by Ashcroft and Walters. FoM I remember that related link you've posted before. Once the Taliban was removed, the poppies could flourish. They are trying to change history and no one is noticing! ----------------------In other late night news, saw something on Leno where the band leader was giving leno crap for misreading something and make a "smoking joint" gesture to which Leno replied "I got that from walking past your room earlier!"  Totally cool. Truly, the momentum is in our favor. Prohibitionists are going to make this fight get far uglier as it dies, but the collapse of these drug laws will happen quickly towards the end. Not unlike dominoes falling.  
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Comment #25 posted by FoM on September 27, 2003 at 21:39:20 PT
Two Articles from The UK
The Great Ecstasy Epidemic:,6903,1051205,00.htmlGovernment Agency Accused of Encouraging Children To Try Drugs:
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Comment #24 posted by lag on September 27, 2003 at 12:00:24 PT
A mosaic
E_JohnsonAs they call it in Canada, it is a mosaic. I'm not saying one mindset, but one understanding that we are all humans, individuals, but that we need each other to do it the best. The melting pot is more like a crucible, and that is harmful to society.
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Comment #23 posted by MikeEEEEE on September 27, 2003 at 11:35:22 PT
When you know it's easy
When you know what you're dealing with it's easy to understand.I have no love for N. Korea but this article speaks for itself about this administration: more year of Bush and his weasels/psychos.
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Comment #22 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 08:22:06 PT
Let him try GCW
Why should this be scary?Is it realistic? Not one bit. He's been reduced to the stage of ranting.HahahahahahaI just got my sister into alcohol rehab. I didn't have to point one gun at her. Not even one. It was her own rotten life that did the trick.Eventually even this moron might get a clue.But apparently not until he's made a complete fool of himself in public.
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Comment #21 posted by The GCW on September 27, 2003 at 04:57:59 PT
Here is a scary last paragraph!
 Pubdate: Fri, 26 Sep 2003
Source: Honolulu Advertiser (HI)US HI: LTE: DRUG SUMMIT POINTS UP THE NEED FOR OVERHAUL The drug summit is now history, with tens of thousands of words, much wringing of hands, numerous pie-in-the-sky recommendations, but no money ( unless you count the profits to major drug dealers and their lawyers ) to even keep pace with the numbers of addicts and related criminal activities. During the summit, law enforcement officials trumpeted a raid on a major Waipahu drug house that arrested nine people, some of whom were previously arrested on a raid at the same location some months prior. Narcotics, firearms and currency were again seized. One of those arrested had 80 prior arrests, a second 50 prior arrests and a third 41 prior arrests, but still they were released. In the latest raid, unless there were outstanding warrants, all were again "released pending further investigation." Not much of an incentive to reform. The spineless Legislature refuses to give our local prosecutor the tools to fight this blight and does not even allow the local laws to conform to the more stringent federal standards. As for money, forget it. Meanwhile, the state Parole Board keeps pushing dangerous criminals out the back door to make way for new recruits coming in the front door. The present system is beyond even life support. The only alternative I see after almost 40 years experience in federal law enforcement is for the federal government to be petitioned to take over the entire justice system from the state. Honest citizens need constitutional protection as much as, if not more than, our criminal elements. Let's get moving. Frank D. Slocum Wai'anae 
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Comment #20 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 00:20:15 PT
There's only so much drama he can provoke
People are really just getting tired of American drama, and its consequences.
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Comment #19 posted by greenmed on September 26, 2003 at 23:57:38 PT
harm reduction
There is little doubt John Walters is reacting to the Dutch considering allowing legal ecstasy sales: department oversight and/or industry self-regulation would help assure purity and dosage, a significant harm-reduction measure. As discussed on the DanceSafe website, ecstasy is sometimes adulterated with other substances, some of which can detract from a beneficial ecstasy experience ... DXM, ketamine, codeine, and even methamphetamine. As Dr. Ricaurte's research has recently demonstrated, the greatest proven danger of ecstasy use is unexpected impurities or misidentication of product: reduction would be furthered by vending mdma tablets, stamped with mg dosage, in small bags attached to cards reminding the consumer to stay well-hydrated, take regular breaks from dancing or moving about, not operate a motor vehicle, etc.If John Walters allows the Dutch to press on, without interference or threat, with their discussion and implementation of harm-reduction measures, he might recognise an alternate model to prohibition and incarceration that better separates markets for soft drugs (including cannabis and ecstasy) from hard drugs.
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Comment #18 posted by E_Johnson on September 26, 2003 at 23:39:24 PT
So lag, which one?
"Socialism is about people living as a community and acting as one."Which one?Aye, there's the rub.People will never agree over which "one".I think socialism needs to be adjusted so that people can act as two or three, because then they won't need as many prisons as they did in the countries where they acted as one.
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Comment #17 posted by b4daylight on September 26, 2003 at 23:00:25 PT:
No wonder we have terrorists we go and stick are noses in other people bussiness. Also is John saying not being able invade people's privacy is gettin in his way?
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Comment #16 posted by FoM on September 26, 2003 at 21:41:17 PT
I forgot to mention about antis and posting. It would be nice to read their thoughts if they were thoughtful and constructive. I don't know why Joyce hasn't posted but maybe she gave up on us. Here's a LTE from the Washington Times that Joyce wrote.
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Comment #15 posted by FoM on September 26, 2003 at 21:31:34 PT
Very interesting post. We shouldn't be a concern for the government but we are. I think about why is any of this important at all. I believe there are reasons that are much bigger then Cannabis. We as a group march to a different drummer. Our values are different then many people. We are a threat. Sometimes I think we are a threat to how things are and that might be why they fight us so.
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Comment #14 posted by lag on September 26, 2003 at 21:08:34 PT
I hang out on a lot of Blogs and the antis are running rampant. How come if the antis come they don't post? I would love to hear what they have to say, as long as it is thoughtful and constructive. I think that most people here are of the mature variety...I've been to the forums on and this place just seems light years away from them. Is that perhaps why no one comes here with opposing view points? The issue is that there are a lot worse worries for the people out there than those who imbibe cannabis. The biggest worry about the herb is that of its counterculture neighbor. The issue with the counterculture is that we are trying to kick humanity up a notch. Make humanity the cohesive family that it should be. I don't understand why so many people are blind to those ambitions...they call it special interests and such...well, I am sick of the special interest in cannabis users, a waste of money and time. The US needs to go through a nice long introspection honest to itself look at who it is, where it came from, and where it is going. From my viewpoint, I'm starting to think that my childhood so close to Canada, living in Detroit, might just have been to prepare me for living there. Watching Bulworth the other day he said many dirty words, but I don't think that any were more offensive to most Americans than socialism, but those people have been lied to. Socialism is about people living as a community and acting as one. Until we can start appreciating who we are as individuals (something the right is supposedly for) but knowing that we are deeply connected (something I believe the right is ignorant of).I don't mean to get partisan here, because there are reasonable conservatives, but I am talking about the freaks running this country. Start treating people like people, and not cogs in the machine. And that means not forcing your stupid desires on everyone else in the world...especially when it has been shown time and again how destructive those wants are.Okay, my rant is done. Hopefully, it didn't stray too off subject.
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Comment #13 posted by FoM on September 26, 2003 at 20:25:08 PT
Thank you. I worry for our safety. I know how popular CNews is these days. I know antis read it. They are desperate. They will look for anything to get an edge on us. We just need to be careful. They could try to shut us down if we would stray to far from what we talk about here. I don't know that for a fact but my intuition says that to me.
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Comment #12 posted by goneposthole on September 26, 2003 at 20:21:13 PT
I have explained myself
You may remove this and the one I just posted. I understand. Thanks for C-News, FoM.
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Comment #11 posted by goneposthole on September 26, 2003 at 20:19:14 PT
It is all interconnected
I wanted to draw a parallel between the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Cannabis prohibition. They may seem worlds apart, but the reality of all what has taken place since 9/11 forces me to think otherwise. The drug trade, Wall Street, and the current events in Iraq are all connected. There are two sides to the story, and it seems that something is missed if only one side is told. The drug trade is a 400 billion dollar world wide business and Cannabis is a part of that trade, unfortunately. Its comsumption is a huge market.The US government wants to tie terrorism and the drug trade together. The intent is to upset the balance of trade and power throughout the world. What is the aim? It is to plunge the world into chaos, in my opinion. I have a provincial point of view, from the outside looking in, and it may seem farfetched, but it is how I see it.When I first began to imbibe in Cannabis, the cost was low. A person could by a pound of weed for 150 dollars and was pretty good ditch weed. Over the years, through continued arrests of users, the price has increased and policing has increased. There is a correlation, as everyone knows, and the profits have become more lucrative and consumption has increased. Now prices are some 10 fold of what the Cultivars Research Service projected they would be for sensimilla back in 1976. The price range they projected was between 25 and 40 dollars per ounce for sensimilla cannabis.Law enforcement is to blame for these horrendous price increases, I believe. As the drug trade has flourished over the years, all kinds of players have entered the picture. Now, it appears, that the picture includes the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan is increasing their Cannabis production. In Albania, orchards are bulldozed to make room for Cannabis production. On and on it all goes to the point that it is today. It all could have been avoided by legalizing Cannabis in the US. The mess isn't what anybody here wanted to see, but it is now an uncontrollable, fit-to-be-tied fiasco, for sure.That is why I posted Muhammed Abu Nasr's correspondence. His ideas seem pertinent to the plight of the Cannabis movement, albeit in an obtuse, fractured way.I'll refrain from further posts, though. I know I have stretched it thin. I hope I have explained myself to your satisfaction, FoM.Cannabis imbibers don't deserve what has been thrust upon them. Have a good evening.The war on (certain) drugs: 
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Comment #10 posted by FoM on September 26, 2003 at 20:12:55 PT
Just a Note
goneposthole I really felt that I should remove your post. The antis try to connect us with terrorists and that just worries me when we talk about things like that here on CNews. I hope you understand. 
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Comment #9 posted by FoM on September 26, 2003 at 19:29:11 PT

I looked at the article you posted and I don't understand why it is of interest to most people here on CNews. I'll leave it posted but lets not bring issues here that are way off what we are here to discuss. Even if some at CNews want to talk about this topic it would be appreciated if it would be on another forum. Thanks. 
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Comment #7 posted by mayan on September 26, 2003 at 18:20:53 PT

Uncle Lies
The rest of the world has no confidence in anything that anyone in the Bush Administration says. The Bush regime blew their credibility as soon as they invaded Iraq for the primary purpose of finding & destroying the dreaded "weapons of mass destruction". Needless to say...they haven't found them! The world is also slowly but surely catching on to Uncle Sam's complicity in the 9/11 attacks. Don't expect any other countries to kiss uncle's ass unless they are bribed...which is an all too real possibility.Down with the Patriot Act...Chicago City Council Takes on Patriot Act:, Austin,Texas just passed a resolution against the Patriot Act & Patriot II! The way out is the way in...Meacher TV Interview now up as Online Flash Video(09/26) House Faces Crunch Time on 9/11 Files:,0,6858321.column?coll=ny-news-columnists9/11 And The Bush Administration - Compelling Evidence for Complicity: CitizensWatch: 25th - Mass March on the White House & Pentagon:
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Comment #6 posted by delariand on September 26, 2003 at 17:18:33 PT

As a confessed ignorant American...
... I must admit I don't know that much about how our country is seen in the eyes of the world. Is it generally felt that the US drug policy is a failure?I don't see why the Dutch would listen to our DEAth agents now, when their drug policy has been working just fine for decades. If the Dutch policy was going to create hordes of addicts who would jump the gateway from marijuana to heroin and totally screw up their lives, where are all the heroin junkies? Where are all the deadbeat loser druggies? Don't you think that in 30 years, some kids might have grown up into adults? Why haven't all these horrible things happened yet, and why are we supposed to believe that they'll ever happen?

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Comment #5 posted by WolfgangWylde on September 26, 2003 at 16:37:28 PT

The real problem that Walters is going to...
...have with lecturing the Dutch is that they've actually expereinced Nazi occupation. They don't have to speculate on what it feels like, or how it gets started. They KNOW. And they ain't gonna let it happen again.
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Comment #4 posted by mamawillie on September 26, 2003 at 15:57:15 PT

Like Walters is an expert
Hummm, the person heading the office that is conducting the war on drugs, the BIGGEST FAILURE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD in regard to drug policies has the gall to lecture other nations on how to fight drugs?The US is NOT winning the war on drugs. It is obvious the government is being overgrown with MJ; the cost spent is excessive; the punishments unjust. Someone needs to kick him out of Europe.

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Comment #3 posted by Treeanna on September 26, 2003 at 15:54:18 PT

Just to let anyone who was waiting know...After a day of research and conferral, I have replied to posters comments in this thread: you :)
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Comment #2 posted by kaptinemo on September 26, 2003 at 15:06:31 PT:

I wonder if tobacco figures in Johnny Pee's
portfolio? Most of these wonks are rich from that kind of dealing before they get into (A-HEM!) 'public service'.It would be interesting to find out if Johnny is taking moolah in the form of dividends from tobacco manufacturers...who export their products worldwide. And cause plenty of death, misery and suffering as a result. Far more than (stupid and ignorant misuse of) MDMA ever has.MDMA is no toy, but it isn't addictive, either. Can the same be said for one of AMERICA'S STILL IMPORTANT EXPORTS?.
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Comment #1 posted by escapegoat on September 26, 2003 at 14:45:10 PT

Wonder if...
Walters will try pulling out jacked murder statistics against the Dutch, just like Barry McCaffrey did. Tue, 14 Jul 1998
Source: Reuters
Author: Christine Lucassen---``The murder rate in Holland is double that in the United States, McCaffrey told Swedish reporters. The overall crime rate in Holland is probably 40 percent higher than the United States.  That's drugs.'' According to the White House adviser, there were 17.58 murders for every 100,000 inhabitants in the Netherlands in 1995, compared with 8.22 murders per 100,000 people in the United States. The Dutch government's Central Planning Bureau poured scorn on McCaffrey's figures. Official data put the Dutch murder rate at 1.8 per 100,000 people in 1996, up from 1.5 at the start of the decade. ``The figure ( McCaffrey is using ) is not right.  He is adding in attempted murders,'' a planning bureau spokesman told Reuters. 
Dutch Rebuke U.S. Drugs Adviser
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