Unitarians Say All Drug Use Should Be Legal

  Unitarians Say All Drug Use Should Be Legal

Posted by CN Staff on June 30, 2002 at 17:30:33 PT
By Jay Lindsay, Associated Press  
Source: Gloucester Daily Times  

Drug use of any kind should be legal, according to the Unitarian Universalist Association, the first religious denomination to take the stance, church officials said.The "Statement of Conscience" passed at the Boston-based association's general assembly proposes legalizing marijuana and making all currently illegal drugs available with a prescription.
The statement said the federal government's costly drug war is cruel and ineffective, and disproportionately affects the poor and minorities. It added that drug use is widely misunderstood."Drug use is erroneously perceived as behavior that is out of control and harmful to others," the statement reads. "... Yet many people who use both legal and illegal drugs live productive, functional lives and do no harm to society."The statement was approved Saturday by two-thirds of the roughly 1,700 delegates at the General Assembly in Quebec, which wrapped up earlier this week.While the statement may appear fairly radical, Rev. Dr. Anita Farber-Robertson, pastor of the Rockport Unitarian Universalist Church, points to many practical considerations that went into the decision. "The philosophy behind the statement is twofold," said Farber-Robertson. "By decriminalizing drug use, it takes the power out of organized crime and away from the power brokers who are not accountable," she said, referring to groups known for drug trafficking. "This is an attempt to disempower that whole covert infrastructure."Farber-Robertson also said the statement is meant to call attention to how society allocates its resources in fighting crime.A lot of people are put in jail for drug offenses that are essentially victimless crimes, she said."If someone wants to sit in their home and smoke a little reefer, it doesn't hurt anyone," she said. "There are more serious issues."Farber-Robertson also said church members believe some drugs that are used to alleviate pain for certain illness should be available for people. She gave the example of cancer patients who sometimes use marijuana to combat the side effects of chemotherapy. Charles Thomas, the head of Unitarian Universalists for Drug Policy Reform, said the statement reinforces the denomination's basic theological tenets, which stress compassion and justice.He said drug abuse would be better seen as a medical problem, rather than a crime, and addicts would respond to "the transforming power of love," much better than incarceration."Ideally, people will not use drugs," he said. "We're not pro-drug. We're pro-choice on drugs, pro-honesty."Robert Maginnis of the Family Research Council, a Christian public policy group, said the statement is well-intentioned, but misguided because it ignores the fact that drugs are harmful, whether they're legal or not."We don't want to make it easier for people to use drugs, we want to make it more difficult because of what they do to themselves," he said. "It's not the illegality of drugs that's at fault. Drugs are just bad for you."The small, liberal denomination, with about 150,000 members nationwide, has a traditionally bucked the mainstream on social issues. Gloucester is the American birthplace of the Universalist branch of the denomination, founded in the late 1770s by John Murray.Robert Fuller, a religion professor at Bradley University in Peoria, Ill., said the Universalists advocated abolition, women's suffrage, and gay rights years before other liberal denominations followed suit."History tends to be on their side," he said.But Fuller said the denomination's statement is unlikely to wield much theological influence on other denominations since it's seen as a far left group that largely rejected religious doctrine in favor of social justice issues.Thomas said the Universalists' statement can spark growth, both in the denomination, and in a much-needed religious component of the opposition to the drug war.Staff writer Barbara Taormina contributed to this report. Note: Unitarians open new front in war on drugs.Complete Title: Unitarian Universalists Say All Drug Use Should Be LegalSource: Gloucester Daily Times (MA)Author: Jay Lindsay, Associated Press Published: June 29-30, 2002 Copyright: 2002 Essex County Newspapers, Incorporated.Contact: mfine ecnnews.comWebsite: Articles & Web Site:Unitarian Universalist Association Calling for Alternative To Drug War a Stand on Public Policy Issues

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Comment #94 posted by Dogwood on July 03, 2002 at 17:41:19 PT
Founding Fathers
You saw "Dazed and Confused" too! Hilarious flick ... brought back a lot of memories.
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Comment #93 posted by Industrial Strength on July 02, 2002 at 12:35:20 PT
online pissing contests
First of all, Bgreen, hilarious about the dating thing.Online pissing contests...That's what flames seem to resort to "I'm this and that, I have this, I did this ect ect"What do you know about NORML? I taught Kieth Stroup everything he knows!!!!!!!
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Comment #92 posted by qqqq on July 02, 2002 at 04:40:29 PT
...I dont think I'll ever be able to date again....after finding out EJ was married,,and FoM,and Amanda are spoken hopes and dreams were shatterred....My old gypsy Hobo Hippie ass is doomed to wander the earth alone ........ ..............................
....."...........too old to date,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but still young enough to masturbate.".....
......I always say,,that I dont know if I would want to date a girl who would go out with me..If a girl accepts a date with me,,her standards are suspiciously low!...She's probably been around Cape Horn and back,,and would be using me for entertainment purposes!......eventually onling and offling me,,until my world fell apart,
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Comment #91 posted by Hope on July 02, 2002 at 03:47:22 PT
It's the anomalous onglings you have to watch.
Dating them can be risky. While I don't wish to alarm anyone who is thinking of doing so, they do seem to have a tendency to be sneaky and untrustworthy and you could wind up pregnatized without knowing what hit you and the next thing you know you are surrounded by hordes of little anomalous onlings. 
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Comment #90 posted by pppp on July 02, 2002 at 03:15:11 PT
...I am also curious about this onling thing Indy....I thought about it being a typo,,but "e",,is a ways from "g".... 
..Perhaps the opposite of an "onling",,,is an "offling"..?
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Comment #89 posted by BGreen on July 02, 2002 at 03:07:30 PT
I hope the dating service and the pissing contest don't have anything to do with each other.
American Dating Service Personals. Personal Ads. Onling dating personal ads. Sin
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Comment #88 posted by BGreen on July 02, 2002 at 03:02:03 PT
onling pissing contests
What might those be, I.S.?
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Comment #87 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 23:49:03 PT
Characterized by or displaying unusual, exciting or unexpected qualities, conditions ect.Yea, D to the Q to the P times four, you better stay on my good side!! No telling what I might say next...It is pretty anomalous (I'm going to use that word all the time now, now and forever) how no one seems to resort to onling pissing contests, which plague almost every other discussion forum as FF pointed out. I guess it's because we are so amotivational and it's eaiser to get along than to fight. Lol.
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Comment #86 posted by dddd on July 01, 2002 at 23:22:25 PT
....Right On Firedog....
........."even when flames do erupt, they are doused very quickly, and the people who had the blowtorches out go
      back to civilized, even jovial, communication minutes later."
,,,,,I was stunned when I read todays posts,,and saw Indy's spectacular,"Blow Me"..comment!...Wow....
 .....[(note to self,,be careful to not piss Indy off.)]....
..You're right Firedog,,,I've seen some mighty caustic exchanges,and hateful disaggreements go on here,,but somehow things always get patched up.....As soon as I win the lottery,,I'm going to pay for everyone to come to Lake Tahoe,,for the CNews convention!....dddd
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Comment #85 posted by freedom fighter on July 01, 2002 at 23:19:18 PT
I.S. perplexed??
In regard to your comment #17, I'm not sure what you are perplexed about. Of course, we the U.S. corrupted politcians do not want to be haul off to the World Court over some frivilous charges invented by I.S. or dddd or whomever. :)) MDG probably does not want to be charged as a war criminal for spanking a kid in some court that is not consituitionally corrected..:))) Mr. Bush will not allow this to happen!Onward Thru the Fog!ff
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Comment #84 posted by FoM on July 01, 2002 at 22:01:28 PT
That sounds like a good idea but I'm too small to kick anyones derriere! LOL!
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Comment #83 posted by CongressmanSuet on July 01, 2002 at 19:32:58 PT
Interesting ideas....
   It seems we have the Democratic Party, the Republican party, The Greens, the Constituanal Law Party. Maybe we neet to get militant and form the "Legalize, or we will kick your ass" Party. The Pot leaf with a fist inside it would be perfect to get our point across. There are some interesting ideas for bumperstickers as dddd has pointed out. My favorite? "Pull me over Pig, its YOUR funeral". Just a thought...
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Comment #82 posted by firedog on July 01, 2002 at 19:10:13 PT
One of the things I really like about this site... how even when flames do erupt, they are doused very quickly, and the people who had the blowtorches out go back to civilized, even jovial, communication minutes later.So many other bulletin boards out on the web are nothing but flames. And don't even get me started on the mainstream news sites...But here, I don't think I've ever seen a major flame war. I have on pretty much every other site. Cannabis News is a major anomaly. Could it be the higher-than-normal THC levels of people who come to this site?Whatever it is, it's a precious thing, a very rare thing, and I'm glad it's here.
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Comment #81 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 18:09:58 PT
I spent the last 7 years of my life
in a church with people telling me the same thing MDG has been saying. I'll preface this by reaffirming that I am a STRONG Christian, but when they were saying that cannabis would keep me from getting closer to God, and I knew half or more of the people telling me that had more pharmaceuticals in their bodies than Elvis, it became clear it's a matter of personal choice.The Bible very clearly states to remove anything from your life that becomes more important than, or gets in the way of, your relationship with the Creator. Some Christians tend to go overboard, assuming what gets in their way MUST get in everybody else's way, so they go about trying to rid the world of whatever "it" is.That, I believe, is why people reacted so strongly towards the comments MDG made. Most people who start talking like that very quickly start condoning incarceration for cannabis users.
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Comment #80 posted by MDG on July 01, 2002 at 17:14:16 PT
Dan B...I certainly see your point...
The "spanking" title was actually in jest referring to the other thread were someone used the word "spanking". I don't even usually use the word "Dude"! But, I'll certainly be more careful from here on out. As a matter of fact, calling I.S. "child" was rather poor choice of words, and I admit it. I should have just said "You're still young, and when you're an old fart like me, you'll recall the silly things you've said, just like I do..." or better still and more simply, "You don't need to remind me." Industrial Strength, I'm sorry about that. If you ever met me, you'd be hard-pressed to find me at all hostile...I usually go out of my way to be considerate. I'll just tack this one up to experience with the other things I've learned this past week. As a matter of fact, one of the silly things I recall saying is in post #51.
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Comment #79 posted by Zero_G on July 01, 2002 at 16:54:21 PT
An editing mistake {which was deleted) left out the part which linked the friends part to general conversation. But, its clear I think.
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Comment #78 posted by Hope on July 01, 2002 at 16:50:26 PT
Thank you, so much, MDG.
Thanks for not giving up the drug law reform movement. We need everyone we can muster on our side and sure don't need anyone to leave a gap in the ranks.Thanks again. Now you can say, "NO~It's not cause I want to smoke marijuana legally at all! That has nothing at all to do with why I'm taking sides in this fight. It's because the war on drugs is wrong and immoral!"
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Comment #77 posted by Zero_G on July 01, 2002 at 16:48:44 PT
customs, comments, communications...
When an argument occurs between friends (or people of similar[we are all here]) beliefs, an observer can discern communication breaks, and trigger points that have set off emotional reply.I'm sure you know some of mine.Understanding these is a result of study of customs, as anyone who as traveled the world to any extent knows, the Japanese household example, to wit.I just wanted to throw this out as metaphor for the fact that we have an administration led by a man who was loathe to leave Texas before coming to office...One of my personal sore spots.
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Comment #76 posted by Dan B on July 01, 2002 at 16:32:29 PT:
You're right, of course. I did think that comment #51 was rather hostile (c'mon, a spanking?), but comments 53 and 55 were also rather hostile, and really I just wanted to see it end. But my comment about Christians and hostility--well, I will admit that I went overboard there, and I retract the statement. Anyway, my intention was to try to butt in where I didn't belong and make something positive happen, which is ridiculous on its face because you two managed to patch things up fine, and my intrusion ended up being basically just an intrusion (although I appreciate the appreciation from I.S.). Also, I felt like I owed I.S. one, and this seemed like a good opportunity.Mostly, I'm glad to see that you two have worked this out, and I see no reason why I should butt in where I don't belong again (you never said that I did; this was my own observation), but you can bet that sometime in the future I will butt in again, though maybe not with you in particular, and we'll repeat this whole process, after a fashion.In other words, there are no hard feelings on my end (I can't even think of a reason why there would be hard feelings), and I hope the same is true for you toward me.Sincerely,Dan B
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Comment #75 posted by FoM on July 01, 2002 at 16:29:34 PT
Hi Everyone Just Call Me HAL!
I couldn't resist saying that IS. You're right we would be computers.
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Comment #74 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 16:27:02 PT
about how if we took emotion out of the equation that we would be computers talking to each other.
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Comment #73 posted by MDG on July 01, 2002 at 16:02:48 PT
Also, the bit about dishes...
It's considered an insult to insist on helping with the dishes, and the language used by the father is not supposed to be taken as mean or hostile, but directive. Okay, I think I've said quite enough for today!
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Comment #72 posted by MDG on July 01, 2002 at 15:59:09 PT
Industrial Strength...
No hard feelings at all. I've always felt that discussion is great, especially when people disagree, because we do find ourselves in a position to re-evaluate our own beliefs. If we were able to take out the emotion (like both of us were not able to today, because we are human) we'd sound like computers talking to each other. I'd say something like "Keep at it. You're a bright kid", but I don't think we want to go back that direction! :)
Take care!
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Comment #71 posted by MDG on July 01, 2002 at 15:53:55 PT
I'm certainly not going to abandon the movement. My disgust in how the system is now, and the obvious realization the my beliefs shouldn't be forced on anyone else and vice versa is why I became a Libertarian in the first place. I used to ride motorcycles, but wrecked once and told myself it wasn't worth the risk to be killed hitting a deer or by someone eating a hamburger. But, I'd never say that no one else should be able to so. With cannabis, I simply realized that it was an obstruction that I no longer wanted. I can see no reason why I would be any less vocal now than two weeks ago. I hope I don't sound like I judge anyone. My initial bit of irritation with I.S. was like a Japanese father using very formal language with an American house-guest when the guest offers to help with the dishes. It's considered an insult to do so, but not supposed to be taken as mean (or hostile, honest!)
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Comment #70 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 15:46:03 PT
Yes, telling you to blow me and to shut the fuck up was dumb. I was just really annoyed, as you were. No hard feelings.
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Comment #69 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 15:41:13 PT
Dan B
I really appreciate your comment. It clearly said what I felt but from a bipartisan third party (I hope this doesnt come across as smug).I felt like I had to do something to disassociate myself from the "blow me" comment, hence the acquiescing.
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Comment #68 posted by Hope on July 01, 2002 at 15:37:41 PT concern
What I'm a little concerned about and what I'd love to hear you say is that now that you, since you for sure no longer have to worry about being busted, will be more vocal and active than ever in speaking out against the war on drugs. For many of us it may actually be about marijuana or defending it, but for just as many of us it's about the injustice, cruelty, REAL immorality, and wrongs of the war on drugs. It's about protecting people from an unjust system and keeping them from being marginalized or demonized. You were very right to cast your use aside if you felt in any way that it came between you and God. If you held it too important then it mastered you instead of you mastering it. We have to keep that in mind about everything, and we have to especially keep an eye on the pleasurable things. It's not the pleasure that makes them wrong. Feeling a sense of pleasure in good gifts from God is in no way a sin. But letting anything master us or mean more to us than our relationship with God...well, that's a problem. A huge problem, no matter what it might be or whether it's legal or not.I just want to make sure you aren't developing the attitude that "the drug war has nothing to do with me...therefore it's none of my concern." Please don't do that.For me, if and when I do use cannabis it is " the word of God and prayer". I don't believe you would be like many believers and think that my actions should be governed by your concience. I don't suspect you of that at all. I just want to know that you are still with us. I know you aren't against us...just let us know that you are still with us. Please.
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Comment #67 posted by Dave in Florida on July 01, 2002 at 15:36:04 PT
What is Getting Baked?
Well, that would be getting loaded, or stoned, or wasted, or high, etc.. for me a few tokes and I get half baked, smoke the whole doobie and I am definitly baked. On Saturdays or Sundays when you don't have to work you can "wake & bake", which is a nice way to start the day. 
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Comment #66 posted by FoM on July 01, 2002 at 15:27:15 PT
What is Getting Baked?
I'm serious. I don't know what that means. I've never been baked I don't think. Just curious. 
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Comment #65 posted by MDG on July 01, 2002 at 15:26:27 PT
If that one seemed hostile...
it wasn't supposed to. 
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Comment #64 posted by MDG on July 01, 2002 at 15:24:03 PT
Dan B...
Of all the people here, one thing I've always said about you was that you didn't start off insulting people when you disagreed with them. I've always believed that if you want someone to listen to you, you don't start by saying, "Hey, shithead, listen here..." This was one of the disagreements I had with kaptinemo a long time ago about addressing people that you wanted to communicate with, especially if you wanted them to see your point. I don't think I was being hostile to anyone here. Sure, I was irritated that I.S. didn't catch the gist of what I was saying and told me to remember something of which I clearly didn't need to be reminded, and quite possibly over-reacted, even for me, but hostile toward a fellow human being, with the not-so-discreet implication that it's because I'm a Christian? Come on. I didn't tell anyone to "blow me" or to "shut the fuck up". 
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Comment #63 posted by MDG on July 01, 2002 at 15:13:47 PT
Industrial Strength, et al.
Just as I've come to the conclusion that smoking cannabis has not been the best thing for me, I realized long before that that drinking wasn't. So, my choice to no longer use it was just to eliminate another behavior that, ultimately, gave me no real peace and possibly made things worse. The more I wanted to smoke (which was really only after work), the more I felt like I needed to hide it. This is like drawing the obstruction closer to myself in my original example. It's as simple as that.
However, as I mentioned in my first post today, that I'm going to remain a Libertarian, so I'm not going to be "switching sides" and joining DEA ranks or anything like that. I recently corresponded with someone at the LP about running for office. But, I simply discovered that, for me, cannabis ultimately turned out to be a dead-end.
Regarding discrediting the MMJ movement, I believe I've done no such thing. I know of one person that got his "letter" merely so he could start growing and selling. Now, that does discredit to the MMJ movement, and has nothing to do with the reason I went to this last in a recent number of doctors. My "letter" is just as much on the trash heap as the pipes and other things I've gotten rid of.
Very recently, I felt that my anxiety could actually have been caused by something else, not a debilitating disease. This is why I felt like I betrayed those who really need it, like those with HIV and cancer. I didn't leave the doctors office with a bag of weed, headed for a reggae concert. I left with a note describing my recent medical history and a prescription for some other pharmaceuticals and went to the pharmacy. When I mentioned getting rid of cannabis-related items, don't assume that the "letter" wasn't one of them. In fact, I would have called the doctor to trash the copy in my file on Friday had he been in the office. That had to wait until today.
So, to end this whole bit here, I'm sorry if I pissed you off, which I clearly did. I was probably as irritated when I read "For me, getting baked and watching the simpsons brings about no inner turmoil for I do not pretend to use it for anything but a mild distraction. Please remember; for you, for you, for you. Not for me. Not for alot of others." as you were when you read my response. Obviously, we reacted in very different ways which really is a sign of age, but at least there was the "olive branch retraction". But, I didn't mean to say that you couldn't have an opinion because you're younger than I am, or that yours is less valid merely because you are 18. The statement that you'll one day say, "boy, I should have just kept my mouth shut and listened" is based on my own experience, because I said the same thing about myself. But, in the first post, I was just sharing an experience which I think will ultimately prove more valuable to me than smoking pot, not "preaching". I never told anyone what to do. So, saying that I need to be reminded that others still like to smoke, when I even said in the post "That choice should belong to each person alone" just seemed rather silly and presumptuous.
I think we all agree more than we think, that the issue is much greater that getting baked and watching cartoons. Communication is a very important, yet often prickly thing, isn't it?
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Comment #62 posted by Dan B on July 01, 2002 at 15:01:27 PT:
Industrial Strength
Stick to your guns. I read all of the comments, and I find nothing in yours to suggest that you were in any way being disrespectful or inhospitable. I do understand how people can fly off the handle (I did it a while back too, as I'm sure you recall), and I'll admit that it is far too easy to pick on a person's age or relative inexperience (as I did . . . you know). But, the fact that you (Industrial Strength) stuck to your guns forced me to re-examine what I had written and realize that I was wrong to judge you (especially since that meant I was setting myself up as somehow being "better than" you--an act I find repulsive when others do it). I'll say this: Industrial Strength, you're wiser than I was at your age.I hope MDG will go back and really read comments . . . oh, say 49-60, then think about how each comment was intended to be understood. I mean no offense by this, but I think MDG will see that all I.S. was doing was staking a claim to his own right to determine what he will do with his own body and his own future, just as MDG has done by putting the herb down and picking up the Bible. I don't think I.S. was judging the decision MDG made, and I don't think MDG intended to judge anyone for not making the same decision.One last rhetorical question: Are Christians taught to be hostile to their fellow human beings? It sure seems so sometimes.And yes, I know I have no room to talk.Dan B
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Comment #61 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 14:23:30 PT
That was better than I could have said it myself. I feel childish posting this for some reason, but another part of me would feel rude not acknowledging your post.
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Comment #60 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 14:11:44 PT
an olive branch...
I would agree that my saying "Please remember; for you, for you, for you. Not for me" was phrased poorly, open to misinterpretation. I would be the first to agree that my reply to your reply was childish. So here it is, an olive branch...The whole thing was one big misunderstanding. Or, you could stick to your guns and try and spank me. Whatever works best for you.
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Comment #59 posted by FoM on July 01, 2002 at 14:02:51 PT
Thank you for the link. I will check it out.
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Comment #58 posted by Hope on July 01, 2002 at 13:54:42 PT
Industrial Strength
I agree with you that folks using your age as an insult to your intelligence or wisdom is egregious. I've personally met wise toddlers. I suspect it's a natural or genetic gift. Sometimes I've seen situations where, knowing the parents, I doubt that it was genetic. Many people learn from watching and listening and some do it well right from the womb...obviously. Many people are able to learn from the experience of others. "It's a smart guy who doesn't allow himself to get kicked in the head twice by a mule. It's a wise man that learns from the other guy getting kicked in the head by said mule." Or something like that. Age doesn't necessarily mean wisdom and youth doesn't necessarily mean ignorance. Show me brilliance and wisdom in any age person and I'm admiring them. Lack of wisdom in an old guy though is less forgivable than lack of wisdom in a young person.What I'm saying is not meant to insult you, MDG, or anyone else who is of the belief that youth equals lack of knowledge or understanding. I would just like to respectfully disagree. I hope I said this right.
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Comment #57 posted by FoM on July 01, 2002 at 13:40:06 PT
Very well said. I didn't smoke for almost 10 years. It's about freedom not marijuana. It's the right to be a master of our own destiny.
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Comment #56 posted by Hope on July 01, 2002 at 13:33:25 PT
Your sharing of what's been happening with you is cool. Congratulations on your joyful baptism...or should I say, your death, burial, and resurrection?I do hope the fact that you've laid the herb down doesn't mean that you are laying down the fight for freedom. I'm not smoking, but that's not what this fight is about to me. It's about freedom and not persecuting, stealing from, and jailing those who choose to use drugs or herb or anything.We need you for the struggle. You don't have to be smoking. It's absolutely not a requirement to be on our side in this battle.
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Comment #55 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 13:31:15 PT
in haste
Forgive that puerile retort, but it really annoys me that you feel as if I cannot have an opinion of my own because I'm younger than you. Your so wise I should listen to everything you say, take it to heart, not make up my own decisions or anything. How silly of me!
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Comment #54 posted by konagold2 on July 01, 2002 at 13:22:33 PT:
attn ministrial canadates -- a Canabist Chruch
AlohaWe are a Church which has used Cannabis as a sacrament since our formal organization in 1969.further info can be found at
Http://TheReligionofJesusChurch.orgRev. Benny Guerrero aka Ras Iyah Ben Makahna [see recent 9th circuit court decision affirming the RFRA right to possess cannabis religiously] is a minister of the Religion of Jesus Church as well as a Rastafarian[we are pluralistic]Aloha
Rev. Dennis [truth sets us free] Shields
The Religion of Jesus Church
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Comment #53 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 13:18:09 PT
blow me
Really, that pissed me off. Oh, im younger than you, take some free shots! Shut the fuck up. For starters, in your post you admitted to discrediting the medical marijuana movement. To me, your entire post seemed preachy. Your incapable of "spanking me". I will not roll over in this case.
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Comment #52 posted by FoM on July 01, 2002 at 13:18:03 PT
I'm happy for you and I do understand what you're saying. I don't have any advice except do what you feel is the right thing for you. Some of the best times in my life were spent in a small church we attended for quite a few years. 
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Comment #51 posted by MDG on July 01, 2002 at 13:12:44 PT
Dude, you're just asking for another spanking...
I think it's pretty apparent from my post, and from just about every other post I've made here, that it was "An interesting change for me..." and that I don't force my own choices on others. Don't assume that just because I've figured something out for myself I'm going to cram it down your throat, and I never pretended it was more than it was. So, you "please remember" that you're still a child, and when you're as old as I am, you'll recall all the silly things you've said at your age and think, "boy, I should have just kept my mouth shut and listened."
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Comment #50 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 12:54:39 PT
to each his own
For you cannabis might have been blocking your view of the lord and it is good you got rid of it. For me, getting baked and watching the simpsons brings about no inner turmoil for I do not pretend to use it for anything but a mild distraction. Please remember; for you, for you, for you. Not for me. Not for alot of others. I think we live in a society where everything has to have some wonderdrug, every minor irratation has to have some pill, some substance that makes things all better without having to change your ways. We have taken the phrase "better living through chemistry" to an obscene plateau.
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Comment #49 posted by MDG on July 01, 2002 at 12:20:07 PT
An interesting change for me...
I've been around here for a while reading articles, adding comments every so often, and basically gathering information about a whole lot of things. Well, I've had this major anxiety for a couple of years, and even went through a test-medication study and was given a couple of different prescriptions, which didn't really help. I also found a church in town that I really love...I have felt a certain amount of being "drawn" to it. Also, I've posted on a few occasions that "Christians should have no Biblical conflict about smoking pot, since it's not explicitly forbidden in the Bible".
Anyway, last week, I went to see a doctor about this anxiety, and was given a "letter" to allow me to use cannabis for the anxiety. Later on that day, I was baptized with a couple of family members and over 100 other people I hadn't met before, in the water of the Pacific Ocean (no waves to fight in the Bay thankfully). I must say that the baptism was, without exception, the most surreal and amazing experience I have ever felt. A couple days later, having a little herb, I had this thought: The closer one holds an obstruction to himself, the more of the view is blocked. For example, if you're looking at the sunset, but holding a book at arm's length, the book blocks a small amount of the sunset. Move the book closer and it blocks more and more until all that is seen is the book. What I realized at that moment was that I have been searching for something, and that the cannabis was just a fact, for me it was nothing more than an illusion. The view that was being blocked was The Lord, and the obstruction was the herb.
I also realized that, since it's legal for me to use cannabis, that I wasn't using it medicinally, but for selfish reasons. In fact, I felt a bit like I was betraying those who really need it. I don't have a wife or a family of my own, and this was the thing to which I clung that, as in my example, blocked my view of God. Instead of going anywhere and making a life for myself, I was sitting at home watching the Simpsons and smoking pot. I was given the opportunity to choose what seemed a paradox in that it is easy to decide not to use something because of legal ramifications, but when the only legal consequences are gone, did I still want it? I decided that very instant that I didn't.
Since then, I've gotten rid of anything related to it, just as I did when I realized drinking wasn't any good for me. Now, I realize there is a major difference between drinking alcohol and smoking cannabis, but I realize that for me, both are but illusions; a haze that really had been keeping me from what is, ultimately, a much greater goal in my life, with much greater reward.
That said, I certainly am going to remain a Libertarian and buy a diesel-powered car to use bio-diesel. But, I'm not going to smoke anymore. That choice should belong to each person alone. For me, a better way to relax is probably Yoga, though I'd just use it for the physical benefits, not philisophical reasons.
Incidentally, I believe much of my anxiety/panic attacks were actually caused by NutraSweet/Aspartame in the generic "Crystl-Lite" I was drinking off-and-on over the past couple of years...I just didn't realize it because I was baked all the time! Aspartame appears to be really bad for people to consume, but it's a billion dollar product, so it's put in just about everything diet. It would be rather ironic if people were given medicinal cannabis exemptions because the food industry is allowed to use aspartame! It's sort of a "you can smoke pot, if you allow us to poison you" kind of thing.
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Comment #48 posted by qqqq on July 01, 2002 at 07:39:43 PT
...I'll betchya...
...BGreen,,,and Industrial strength,,, would gladly ordain dddd as a minister of some sort of universal life church!. ....wouldntchya???...??
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Comment #47 posted by JR Bob Dobbs on July 01, 2002 at 07:32:34 PT
Meanwhile, back at the article...
>>Robert Maginnis of the Family Research Council, a Christian public policy group, said the statement is well-intentioned, but misguided because it ignores the fact that drugs are harmful, whether they're legal or not.  The current illegal drugs are more harmful because of their illegal status. Booze was more dangerous during alcohol prohibition. But Robert Maginnis would be out of a job if there were no illegal drugs, so his quacking is to be expected.>>But Fuller said the denomination's statement is unlikely to wield much theological influence on other denominations since it's seen as a far left group that largely rejected religious doctrine in favor of social justice issues.  Can't have social justice creeping in to organized religion, can we?  By the way, anyone who wants to be an ordained minister, free and easy, click here:
The Universal Life Church
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Comment #46 posted by dddd on July 01, 2002 at 07:26:16 PT
.....My Calling!.....
.......Ya know what....after I read Ethans thing about changing the minds of Baptists and such,,,,,I thought that maybe that was my calling!?.. I'll betchya I could make a hardcore Baptist,think twice.....,,after I infilterated their trust!,,And moved forward with my EVIL PLAN TO TURN ALL RELIGIONS INTO PRO-MARIJUANA ZOMBIES.! 
..after all,,,I hope most would not dare to argue ,,.....I am not someone that can be successfully debated with.(?)......[!]....[?!}........I dont mean to brag,and,it's stupid for me to even post this maudlin rave, ..BUT 
 I gotta say....even if you win an argument with me,,,I will make you feel shitty about it!!,,,and I should utilize my talent for kindly making people feel bad for being mean enough to argue with me about MMJ,,,or M!....and make it into some sort of universial mind control cult happening trend,,that brainwashes the fuckin' world into realizing that their Grandma and Grandpa would have loved Marijuana,and that Uncle Rambler once said that;"things are fucked....and they're only gonna get fucked'er!"..... 
.....I'll problee regret posting this,,,,,,,,,and I admit,,,,,I'm kinda drunk! ,,the dddd name will be besmirched for life!....I guess that's why I could never succeed as a PR man...I could never be decietful enough to the customer and public!,,,...but if they paid me enough,,,I might sell out if I was really hungry,,and I was offerred one of those new really cool Lexus "Boxster" type wanna-be sports cars..............
....what about everyone else out there who reads this?????......Let's say,,,,I offerred you a hundred grand a year,and I had a check for 50 grand,,in your name,,if you would agree to do what I say!...?????..well?...I'm sure that alot of people would say shit like;"..No Way!!!...No way would I ever lower my standards to letting some rich bastard compromise my standards by offering me huge amounts of real money!!!!....What sort of a whore do you think I am,?.....gimme a break! think I would lie,,just so I could get a check,,,right now,,,today...for FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!.............????....yup....rite there is where the 4d goes off the,,when used in cerain ways,,can make whores out of nuns,,,and preists into pedophiles,,and enemies into friends,,,,and friends into enemies..!...
...too bad 4d cant think of no good endings for his shit.
.....too bad........
d twice...and then..once again..............d,+3d...=4..........4d....correct!
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Comment #45 posted by cltrldmg on July 01, 2002 at 06:20:39 PT
The Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations (commonly called the Unitarian Universalist Association or UUA) is a liberal religious organization, serving the Unitarian Universalist (UU) churches of North America. The Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches estimated a total membership of 502,000 in 1990. 7 The UUA was formed on 1961-MAY-11 from the merger of the Unitarian and Universalist Churches. Unlike other religiously liberal faith groups, UUs are currently expanding in numbers. Before about 1960, UUs were largely considered the most liberal of Christian denominations. Since then, the beliefs of Unitarian Universalists have become quite diverse. In 1995-JUN, the UUA acknowledged that its sources of spirituality are: Christianity, Earth Centered Religions (Afro-American religions, Native American spirituality, Wicca, other Neopagan religions, etc.), Humanism, Judaism, other world religions, prophets, and the direct experience of mystery. Fewer than 10% identify themselves as Christians; the organization no longer qualifies as a Christian denomination; it is a multi-faith group.
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Comment #44 posted by Ethan Russo MD on July 01, 2002 at 05:57:57 PT:
Chuck Thomas
Chuck was formerly at the Marijuana Policy Project for many years. He his a tireless advocate, and it is great to see him having this kind of impact. Applause for the Uni's. Now only if someone could convince the Baptists and other huge congregations----.
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Comment #43 posted by qqqq on July 01, 2002 at 04:56:07 PT
....ha-ha.... dddd goes so far off topic sometimes,,,perhaps he thinks that this is some kinda "chat-room"!.....
....that dddd is a loser,,and a turkey!./ no attention to his posts from now on,,because me and pppp have decided it's time to step in,,and help dddd with an "intervention" program......Obviously,,dddd has fallen off the edge of reality,,and the humane thing to do,,would be to pretend to make him feel normal,,and play along with all his delusional self centered postings....for example,,,..If dddd was to send you a personal email,,asking about what the fuck is going on,,tell him that everything is just fine,,and that there is nothing to worry about. new friend.....4q/p
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Comment #42 posted by dddd on July 01, 2002 at 04:38:09 PT
...When I think about Missouri...
...I am somehow always reminded of that great Clint Eastwood movie,,"Outlaw Josie Wales",,...and Clint comes across this old lady,and her daughter,...They are from Kansas,,[or something]...And the old lady say something about people from Missouri,,,and she says something like;,,"..we're fine people from Kansas,,and we dont like them Missoura scum from hell!!!"
....That's one of my favorite lines from cinema....the other two favorite cinema experiences are as follows: 
....To Kill a Mockingbird.....near the end of the film.....Gregory Peck,(Atticus Finch),,is in the room with the doctor,after the kids had been attacked in the woods,on the way home from some halloween thing,,,and Jims' arm got broken,when he tried to save Scout,(who was dressed up as a 'ham'),,,and the room grows quiet,,as Scout tries to explain what happenned...she says,,'all of a sudden ,,,some one helped Jim....(?)"......and Atticus,or the doctor asks;"Who was it?".....and then the door swings ,,and we see a young Robert Duvall,,and Scout says,,"Why there he is,,that's the man who saved Jim"...."Why,,It's Boo Radley!"......[)I know that was a shitty rendition of the scene,, but alot of people know what I'm talking about..)...
...Next...was the scene out of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest'....where 'Riley',,had liberated the crazies,,and taken them down to the docks for a fishing trip...They are all on the boat,getting ready to leave,,asnd thjis guy comes down,and ask what the hell they are doing on the boat.......Riley,,,explains that they are a group of distinguished doctors,going on a fishing trip....He proceeds to introduce them,,and the camera zeros in on these mental patients,,as they are introduced as "Doctor ____,,,Doctor...."... etc...If youy saw it,,you know what I'm talkin about..........
I could go on and on.......but I dont want to bore anyone.......yet!......dddd
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Comment #41 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 04:05:09 PT
I live in the State Of Misery
I mean Missouri.
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Comment #40 posted by pppp on July 01, 2002 at 04:03:05 PT
....BGreen...I'm hep....
...I run from the sun!'s hot where I live....
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Comment #39 posted by dddd on July 01, 2002 at 04:00:58 PT
......six strings..... too.......I am a legend in my own mind!.....I switched from piano to guitar in 1965......I could be have been a famous Star a long time ago,,,but I decided that being rich and famous was too much of a plastic hassle,,,,But! ...later on .,,,I changed my mind,,and decided that I would like to be rich and famous....but,,,by that time,,I hated everyone elses music,,and I still didnt care,,because I was,,and still am,my own best fan......
...BGreen....are you in California?..........dddd
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Comment #38 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 03:50:58 PT
I just needed some groceries. You know I have to be inside before the sun comes up, don't you?
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Comment #37 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 03:48:56 PT
I meant
I could set up on the sidewalk as a street musician. Setting up on the street wouldn't be a good idea.
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Comment #36 posted by pppp on July 01, 2002 at 03:48:47 PT
...What did you need at the store this time of night?
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Comment #35 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 03:45:58 PT
No, a guitarist
That's a rarity, huh? LOLWhen the economy is down, people look to music to make them feel better. I feel pretty comfortable with my job security, especially in these times. If you work for a company, look out, 'cause they'll lay you off in a second. I can set up on the street and make more than I would working at McArteryCloggers.
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Comment #34 posted by dddd on July 01, 2002 at 03:36:17 PT
...I also,,am/(was), a professional musician,,,,and I know what you mean!.....luckily,,I pretend to have other talents,,and have sucessfully flumexed my way into tricking others into believing that I am actually competant as an artists/sculptor... ..BUT,,,when I get really hungry,,,I'm also lucky that my Dad was a contractor.....I've made respectable amounts of income playing music,,,but my Dad told me a very sound piece of advice,,,,he said,,"Always keep your tools son,,because if times get tough,,there will always be people who have houses that need to be worked on."....
....BGreen,,,are you a percussionist?......dddd
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Comment #33 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 03:19:59 PT
I had to cruise to the store. I'm glad dddd finally went offline to do something weird! LOLpppp, being that you too are vowell challenged, you should take it easy on your brother in vowellessness.BTW, I'm a professional musician, so it's up to debate as to whether I have a "real job."
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Comment #32 posted by qqqq on July 01, 2002 at 03:17:37 PT
........Big Indy!....
...."We should start threatening them physically...Hey, I'm a pretty big guy, walk around handing out leaflets with my slogan
      being "Legalize it OR ELSE!!" with a picture of a big fist with a leaf emblazoned on it..."
.,........That's Fabulous!!!!...I laughed out loud!!!.....I'm kinda scary lookin' too......we could start a public humiliation/threat campaign,,,,,,people would be politely asked to join our cause....BUT,,,,If these people were too wimpy,,or chicken to join in and fight,,then we would do stuff to them......Not necessarily beat them up,,,but make life difficult for them,,,you know,,put "Fuck All Cops",bumper stickers on their vehicle,,and send their email address to SPAM lists.....Duct tape an old trout to their exhaust pipe.......Tell them that we are with homeland security,,and if they dont do what we say,,they will not be able to get their drivers license renewed... Yea....Scare tactics!.... Fight fire with fire!........dddd
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Comment #31 posted by pppp on July 01, 2002 at 02:41:37 PT
...lighten up on BGreen man!.....I'll fill in for him tonite!....Looks like it might have got a bit too late for the BGreenster. ...Unlike you,,he probably has a real job!!!!!.... 
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Comment #30 posted by dddd on July 01, 2002 at 02:33:47 PT
....HA!......and there you were thinkin' I needed someone to fill in for me!.......I would be proud,and honored,to have p4me fill in for me anytime!,,,,but I decided to go off line,and do something weird tonite.....(thanx for covering for me p4me....I owe ya..)....ddddisorientated
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Comment #29 posted by dddd on July 01, 2002 at 02:24:32 PT
..Space Post-O-Matic Lux forEntertainmentPurposesOnly-AllRightsReservedUnlessAshcroftHasAlreadyStolenThem.....
RampantlyProfaneOpinionMasterLoudmouth..Version 66.6 Billion..Copywrong 2001. 
....I know,,that Independence Day is going to make me sick,and disgusted this year!...Dont get me wrong...I am a hardcore American Patriot!....I would not hesitate to DIE for what America was meant to be!....
..I wanna see a video of a bunch of real "FIREWORKS"!!!,,let's see a bunch of videos of tyhem "daisy cutters" going off!,,heck,,we paid for the best fireworks in the world!,,Why not let all Americans see the spectactular display of bombs that we showered upon Afghanistan!?...I'll betchya there is nothing quite so awesome,,as a carpet bombin' B-52!!!..What a dazzling display!!!..."Now them's whut I call fireworks!"... 
 .....I consider the current military actions in this fraudulent "war on terror",,to be utterly illegitimate as the court appointed regime itself!...........Here's my new Pledge of Allegience...:
I pledge allegiance
to the flag 
of the United States of America 
but not to the republican led empire 
for which it now stands 
One nation,under Democracy 
that is ruled by the Constitution 
and the American People 
that is free of corporate government influence 
with Liberty,and Justce for ALL 
.......I love the 4th 0f July..
....I am an American,,,,but I'm not an American who blindly salutes people I dont know...In my opinion,,anyone who wants to call themselves an "American",,needs to explain what it means!!!!I think any "American",who pays taxes,,should be supplied with a breakdown of where their tax money is being spent!...If they can print out tax forms,and send them to every taxpayer,,then they could easily include a rough breakdown of how these taxes are spent!!(?)... 
.....Who should we blame?....Should we blame the American people for being so gullible,and dis-involved?? .After all,,almost any basic information concerning tax expenditures,,are easily availiable to anyone who takes the time to look.....So...Perhaps we should just blame the people,....If we look at it from the rulers point of view,,we could hear them say;,"...if they dont want to take the time to pay attention to what's going on,,then that's not our problem!."..[?].
.......OK .....let's play the little I.Q. test game of:______is to______,,as__ is to ____......In other words,,,,"Feline is to Cat,,as Canine is to__?...[(if you guessed "dog",,you were wrong...the correct answer was;"not a cat"...)]....[{..sorry,,dimestore joke attempt]}]...anyway,,here are a few of these things for you to answer,,
....1)...4th of July is to Freedom,,,as;Fireworks are to _________?
....2)....Butt is to Stink,,as George W Bush is to _______?
....3)......Independence Day is to Fireworks,,as America is to ______?
....4)....America is to Government,,as Money is to ________?
...5)...Crap,is to reality,,as this post is to ______? 
......I'll let you know the correct answers as soon as I figure them out.......dddd
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Comment #28 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 01:59:56 PT
Thanks for the link, p4me
I'm glad you're filling in for dddd in the nightly "trio" discussion.
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Comment #27 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 01:58:11 PT
I'll write the songs for your campaign
but I make my living with my hands, and I need to protect them, so the whole "get physical" thing just isn't for me.
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Comment #26 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 01:48:48 PT
We should start threatening them physically...Hey, I'm a pretty big guy, walk around handing out leaflets with my slogan being "Legalize it OR ELSE!!" with a picture of a big fist with a leaf emblazoned on it...
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Comment #25 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 01:41:20 PT
We have to make greater headway first
It's only when they feel threatened by us (our advancement towards relegalization, not physically) that they'll feel the need to talk about us.
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Comment #24 posted by p4me on July 01, 2002 at 01:40:06 PT
I S and BGreen
There is a thread at the Winston-Salem Channel 12 television station website that ask the MMJ question. It has almost 500 comments over the last several months. It is interesting to read mainly because of the sightings of the crooked politicians, the crooked courts, crooked law enforcement, and crooked lawyers from first hand experience. If you want a cross section of public opinion there is some good eyewitness accounts of the drug wars here:,2
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Comment #23 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 01:29:13 PT
The other day on a whim I put "war on drugs" into yahoo, and the first page of hits were all against it. I wanted to find a site kind of like this one from the anti's perspective...No luck there, but I was happy to see so many websites protesting this insane, corrupt policy.
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Comment #22 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 01:20:41 PT
Yeah, like how I traced Walter's lies
I assume you read this: sometimes use to find answers to questions I have, or to track down the truth.I agree with you about the power of the internet. That's why Uncle Scam wants to control that, too.
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Comment #21 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 01:08:38 PT
I think
that the internet is truth's greatest ally. Now, almost everyone has access to a wide spectrum of view points, not just what they are told. If only more people looked. Bread and circuses. The Romans would be proud.
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Comment #20 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 00:55:57 PT
This is what I mean
This is from today's issue of The Springfield News-Leader, in Springfield, Missouri.Ozarks schools don’t gloss over what Indians endured. In the mid- 1990s, they started telling a more complete story about the state’s earliest inhabitants.I'm wondering who decides when the truth gets told?
Learning To Tell The Whole Tribal Truth
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Comment #19 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 00:42:21 PT
Sometimes I think we are victims of an elaborate hoax.
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Comment #18 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 00:38:39 PT
Just an overdramatization
not an actual comment on your level of knowledge. To tell you the truth, I don't know how much US history to believe. It's been censored so much and we've been lied to so much, I'm pretty sure we don't really have a clue how much is fact or fiction.
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Comment #17 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 00:30:37 PT
I beg to differ...
My nations infatuation with yours gives me a better understanding of your own country than alot of your own countrymen (although that doesn't say much). You hear about how the US is opposed to the UN's "international criminal court"? Im very perplexed.
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Comment #16 posted by BGreen on July 01, 2002 at 00:26:17 PT
That show pisses me off
I watch those pathetic piglets slapping "high fives" after arresting somebody who obviously wasn't a threat to anybody, and I get so mad!That, Industrial Strength, is what I've been putting up with for 39 years living in this country. It's MY country, I own an acre of it, but I risk jack booted nazi pigs taking everything I have, just because I grow my own cannabis. I don't sell any, and the only thing I've done is keep thousands of dollars out of the black market, but they'll say everything I own was derived from drug profits and steal it from me.If we sometimes seem irrational or overzealous here on about wanting to secure our freedom, try to imagine if the gov't of Canada got 1,000 times worse in their treatment of her citizens. Now, with that in mind, you still don't have a clue how fucking corrupt our so-called leaders are.
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Comment #15 posted by Industrial Strength on July 01, 2002 at 00:12:26 PT
This whole thing just makes me so angry, sometimes it just makes me so sad. Recently, I was watching an episode of cops (I couldn't help myself), and these cops set up a "sting" to bust people for buying tiny amounts of crack. The people were all junkies, emancipated and poor, born into a life which they can only escape by taking themselves away to a synthetic dream world. So, these dead eyed, rag clad skeletons would approach the pig masquarding as a crack dealer and hand over their tattered handful of bills, walk a few yards clutching their precious vial of vile white rocks before six, six god damned bull necked Police officers, product of weight rooms and proper nutrition would violently wrestle these crack heads to the ground. Some of the junkies were sobbing as they tried to swallow their crack. I watched entranced, the mixture of hate and rage and sorrow ballooning inside me prevented me from changing the channel. I bet those cops treat it as a sport. All the time you hear about racism in America's justice system. Cops are racist, but the courts truly are colour blind. The only colour they see is green. The rich get richer, the poor get prison. 
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Comment #14 posted by BGreen on June 30, 2002 at 23:41:45 PT
Taxation without representation
That was what they were protesting. It still exists today, except it stars a different king george.
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Comment #13 posted by Industrial Strength on June 30, 2002 at 23:05:58 PT
the founding fathers
This may annoy alot of you, but I was under the impression that they were all rich men who didn't want to pay taxes? Have I been mislead?
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Comment #12 posted by FoM on June 30, 2002 at 22:34:07 PT
p4me a small note
I want to make sure that you know that I feel all news is worthwhile even if it is from a web site rather then a newspaper. Because of the amount of news I try to post each day I don't read very much outside of current news. Being so focused on newspaper news or breaking news I don't have time to do much reading anywhere else. I said to Hope, who is also Amanda that I know from e mailing her and we are both in Mapinc. Staff email group, that I want to get to DrugSense Chat on the weekend nights but when I am not looking for news for C News I try to rest and watch tv and even clean my house from time to time. Just a little kidding there. I don't want you or anyone to think I don't care because I do but I run out of energy before I get very far from home base. It's slow now with news but soon a lot will be happening in the UK and Canada so this is only the calm before the storm. It will be very interesting to watch and see if they can stand againt the U.S's pressures because we know they will press them hard and threaten sanctions etc. Strange days indeed! I just wanted you to know I appreciate you and your efforts here on C News.
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Comment #11 posted by ekim on June 30, 2002 at 22:02:31 PT
these people are cut from same cloth
==============================================Those who signed the Declaration of Independence... Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men
who signed the Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by the British as
traitors, and tortured before they died. 
Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. 
Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary
War; another had two sons captured. Nine of
the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships
of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their
fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind of
men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were
merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation
owners; men of means, well educated. But they
signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full
well that the penalty would be death if they were
captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and
trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the
British Navy. He sold his home and properties to
pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he
was forced to move his family almost constantly.
He served in the Congress without pay, and his family 
was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from
him, and poverty was his reward. Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery,
Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge,
and Middleton. At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr, noted
that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the
Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged
General George Washington to open fire.  The home was
destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed.
The enemy jailed his wife,and she died within a few
months. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she
was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives.
His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For
more than a year he lived in forests and caves,
returning home to find his wife dead and his children
gone. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion...
(and perhaps a broken heart.) Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such
were the stories and sacrifices of the American
Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing
freaks. They were men of means and education. Men
that took pride in their reputations & were willing
to stand up for their beliefs. They had families,
businesses & security, but they valued liberty; And
were willing to put their lives on the line for it. They pledged: "For the support of this declaration,
with firm reliance on the protection of the divine
providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, 
our fortunes, and our sacred honor." 
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Comment #10 posted by FoM on June 30, 2002 at 21:36:09 PT

Just My 2 Cents
This is interesting to me to see any church organization saying the drug war is wrong. I really don't know anything about this denomination but I think there might be one in our local small town. I'll check it out and see if it is a Unitarian Church. As far as the difference between the members I don't know but I'd like to know. My reason is religious leaders have a hard time attacking a fellow churches beliefs. They can rant and rave about us but they are slower to rise up against one of their own. Maybe someone will learn something from their stand.
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Comment #9 posted by BGreen on June 30, 2002 at 20:28:57 PT

I should have said denominations
I think that most of the Churches within a particular denomination adhere to a single standard.
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Comment #8 posted by BGreen on June 30, 2002 at 20:23:34 PT

Not all Churches are the same
Some consider everybody attending as members, and some have special classes or guidelines for obtaining membership, so the number of people attending may be substantially higher.
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Comment #7 posted by FoM on June 30, 2002 at 20:18:31 PT

Thanks for trying. I just wanted to check it out if it was from a newspaper. 
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Comment #6 posted by BGreen on June 30, 2002 at 20:11:14 PT

The official stats
The official stats
Unitarian Universalist Association Statistical Summary
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Comment #5 posted by Dan B on June 30, 2002 at 19:51:44 PT

Many More UUs Than Reported
The small, liberal denomination, with about 150,000 members nationwideI wonder where these authors, who proclaim that there are only "about 150,000" or "about 200,000" Unitarian Universalists, get their numbers. Check out this link, which shows that there are, in fact, 854,400 Unitarian Universalists in the United States: of this article is quite good--especially the fact that the stuff said by Robert Maginnis appears so late, which means that more people will read the good stuff at the beginning than will read his crap at the end. But it bothers me that every time I read about the Unitarian Universalists, they are always described in terms of their numbers, and those numbers are always far below the actual figures, according to the U.S. Census of 2000. It seems to me that these authors are trying so hard to play down the number of people who believe as the Unitarian Universalists do about the war on some drugs, that they stretch the truth until it becomes a lie, and the lie keeps getting worse (next thing you know, we'll be hearing that there are "approximately 100 Unitarian Universalists in the country, so their opinion really doesn't matter, now does it?").Anyway, it seems to me that what this article is really trying to do is shock people, nothing more, than bring them back to the government-approved version of "reality" by first dismissing the U.U. viewpoint by describing them as a "small, liberal denomination, with about 150,000 members nationwide," then injecting them with the invective of Robert Maginnis. The whole thing is just a ploy to sell more subscriptions with "hype," rather than a genuine attempt to get at the truth.But then, reporters aren't paid to write the truth. Maybe they never were.Dan B
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Comment #4 posted by BGreen on June 30, 2002 at 19:35:55 PT

I don't know what you're looking for
but I did a search on for "Green Harvest Hawaii" and came up with a lot of links.
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Comment #3 posted by p4me on June 30, 2002 at 19:21:51 PT

I wish I could help
The article first listed in comment 1 came from and I tried finding the link. I used the search engine on the home page using "Green Harvest" and found nothing. The listing for the state news for June only goes up to June 24th as you can see here: There was an article on 6/6/02 about a man that likes weed being sentenced and is barely worth mentioning because of hundreds of thousands of people get convicted on weed charges all the time. I think the article must have appearred in the last few days and is just not in the archives yet. Where is that Adler guy when you need him?1,2
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Comment #2 posted by FoM on June 30, 2002 at 18:54:30 PT

Could you post the link so I can check it out? Thanks.
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Comment #1 posted by p4me on June 30, 2002 at 18:32:16 PT

Hawaii is tired of the drug war hell time of accountability for Hawaii's 'marijuana eradication program' has
come. Horrible social, economic and environmental damage have grown for
decades on the manure of prohibitionist media and journalism, DARE
misinformation, police propaganda and the lack of a 'mandatory program
review.' It's time to take a good, hard look at what's going on here, and
repair it now for our healthy and prosperous future.Reported and many more unreported incidents of heavily armed and violent,
ninja-clad robbers looking for 'medical marijuana,' Forbes magazine
declaring doing business in Hawaii is akin to 'economic suicide,' statewide
poverty, the 'ice' epidemic, poisoned gardens, post-traumatic stress
disorder from a terrorized rural populace, the exodus from here to anywhere
- all of these and more are examples of unintended consequences of the
state's marijuana eradication program, now in its 30th year.An independent and critical 'mandatory program review,' as required by the
Hawaii County Charter, Section 3-16 every four years and never done, would
help identify the root cause of these problems and hold the responsible
parties accountable - at least on the Big Island.The state's marijuana eradication program acts like an artificial
price-support and endorsement for crime, hard-drug and alcohol abuse and
other antisocial behavior. The pharmacratic inquisition has been an age-old
battle to deny a traditional sacrament and natural herbal remedy and to
replace it with (fill in the blank) for someone else's benefit.Prohibition-minded lawmakers, law enforcers, lawyers, media people and
others just might be the cause of the state's biggest crime wave. How can
we the people find out? We need a mandatory program review of the marijuana
eradication program to prove it, or not. It's the unenforced law in Hawaii
County, and should be the enforced law statewide.The marijuana eradication program - also known as Green Harvest - is a
creeping para-military war on civilians and curious children and an excuse
to spy on inhabitants by the agencies and agents we hire to protect us from
that very behavior. The program is domestic terrorism disguised as law,
paid for by duped taxpayers and lobbied for by police departments that
financially benefit directly from it.Like early Christians who were forged by persecution, cannabis enjoyers
worldwide are building a faith in the healing and sacramental qualities of
this miraculous herb. The very word 'Christ' means anointed, with cannabis,
or kaneh bosm, and other herbs in olive oil, according to a specific recipe
given to Moses in the Torah, or Old Testament. See for details. For details on the rich
history of cannabis hemp in Shinto, see know that with the light of a mandatory program review shining on the
darkness of our 30-year war called the marijuana eradication program, all
the inhabitants of Hawaii will find healing and forgiveness and return to
the conditions of harmony and abundance that nature and divinity will have
entitled us.This link: has this article presented 7th on todays state news list:
Police report increase in marijuana plantsHILO (AP) — Big Island police uprooted more than 14,000 marijuana plants during a five-day eradication effort that ended on Friday.Lt. Henry Tavares, head of the Hilo Vice Section, said Saturday that the 14,425 plants represented a significant increase over previous months.In May, a three-day operation led to the confiscation of 2,973 plants, police said.Tavares attributed the increase to the fact that ‘‘we are well into the marijuana growing season.’’‘‘The maturing plants are taller, which makes them easier to spot from our helicopters flying at 1,000 feet,’’ he said.‘‘The high number of plants also indicates that marijuana is still a major threat to the Big Island,’’ Tavares said.One suspect was arrested during last week’s operation in Puna, Hilo and North Hilo.Police were hoping for federal prosecution of the woman, because of the large number of plants found growing on her property and in her indoor growing operation, Tavares said.1,2
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