Opium Stockpiles Moved

Opium Stockpiles Moved
Posted by FoM on September 30, 2001 at 22:17:14 PT
By John Innes 
Source: The Scotsman 
Massive stockpiles of raw opium grown in Afghanistan are being moved out of the region in anticipation of military strikes, according to the government . An estimated 3,000 tonnes of the drug - enough to produce 300 tonnes of pure heroin with a street value of £20 billion - is thought to be held by the region’s drug lords. A Downing Street spokesman said there had been evidence in recent weeks of a "sudden movement" of opium out of neighbouring Pakistan where it was being stockpiled. 
The disclosure will prompt fears that the West is about to be flooded with a glut of cheap heroin by Afghanistan’s Taleban rulers. The Taleban is known to have used the profits of the trade in drugs to fund their military activities. Osama bin Laden - named by Britain and the US as the prime suspect behind the 11 September atrocities - is also said to be closely involved in the Afghanistan drugs trade, and has his own substantial stockpile of opium. Opium grown in Afghanistan is though to account for 95 per cent of the heroin reaching Britain and around 75 per cent of the total supply worldwide. Although the Taleban last year finally banned the growing of opium poppies, there have been unconfirmed reports that they have threatened to lift the ban if military strikes against bin Laden go ahead. Al-Qaida, bin Laden’s organisation, skims a cut of Afghanistan’s heroin exports, based on its needs. Drug enforcement officials estimate it has stockpiled opium worth US$2 billion (£1.4 billion) at today’s prices. Rachel Ehrenfeld, the director of the Centre for the Study of Corruption in New York, said: "They are selling it in Russia and Europe. It is the main source of terrorism funding." Al-Qaida, which bin Laden helped establish in Afghanistan 12 years ago, employs 3,000 civilians and 2,000 armed troops, and operates communications equipment, training bases and safe houses around the world, which are used by Muslim extremists from Egypt to the Philippines.Source: Scotsman (UK) Author: John InnesPublished: Monday, 1st October 2001Copyright: The Scotsman Publications Ltd 2001 Contact: Letters_ts Website: Related Articles: Troops Will Target Drugs Stockpile Trade Fuels Bin Laden's Terror Network Rely on Drug Money, says DEA Chief 
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Comment #48 posted by FoM on October 03, 2001 at 12:56:56 PT
mr greengenes 
I'm not sure but I think opium poppies are only red but I could be wrong. Maybe someone knows. I grew California Poppies and they were yellowish - orange but I didn't try to consume anything. They were just pretty.PS: In our young and crazy days we tried eating Morning Glory seeds and got sick! Yuk! LOL!
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Comment #47 posted by mr greengenes on October 03, 2001 at 12:44:25 PT
re: Opium for the Masses
I tried growing some poppies once. I tried smoking the opium, but got no effect from it. Whenever I tried to eat some or eat the bulbs I got a stomach ache. On one occasion, everytime I stood up to move around I felt dizzy and nauseas. The only time I felt all right was when I was lying down. The slight effect of the opium wasn't worth the side effects. I got the seeds from the spice section at the grocery store. They had white blooms. Maybe I got ahold of the wrong kind of seeds? The only reason that I would grow them again is for the ornamental bulbs, but I probably won't even bother with that.
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Comment #46 posted by FoM on October 03, 2001 at 07:35:36 PT
Found an article! Here it is and thanks for the heads up!DEA Seize Files on Medical Marijuana Patients
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Comment #45 posted by ekim on October 03, 2001 at 07:18:11 PT:
Am seeking more info on story
I have asked about the story as yet have had no response. It was sent to me from a trusted friend. I did see it mentioned on pot tv but now I don't see it. I hope I did not pass on wrong info as I reguard all here as friends. Will keep you posted. 
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Comment #44 posted by dddd on October 02, 2001 at 22:01:48 PT
.....I am very curious about this incident.Like Lookinside,I'm a Californian,,and I havn't seen anything about this.Perhaps ekim could tell us more about where this originated....It would not suprize me if it was blacked out in the media,,,,and if it's a hoax,,it's a strange one...?.....dddd
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Comment #43 posted by lookinside on October 02, 2001 at 21:12:53 PT:
dr. fry..
i have never heard of her before, which means nothing..has ANYONE heard anything about this?
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Comment #42 posted by dddd on October 02, 2001 at 00:29:27 PT
...I cannot find a report of this story anywhere,,,I rummaged through various El Dorado county newspapers ,and it appears to be a news blackout....I have little doubt that the story is true........ 
......and it further verifies my government media control fillibusterings!..........and I consider media control to be the apex of the vortex in the domination of the Evil Empire.......... dddd
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Comment #41 posted by dddd on October 01, 2001 at 20:17:02 PT
see what I mean?
...hmmmmm,,,no news about it here in SoCal yet..........wonder why????...dddd
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Comment #40 posted by FoM on October 01, 2001 at 20:02:43 PT
I keep looking for a news article but I haven't found one but if I do I will post it right away. I wonder why it hasn't made the newspapers yet?
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Comment #39 posted by ekim on October 01, 2001 at 19:53:00 PT:
It must have happen on Sept. 29
It is on todays Dick Cowans 420 pot tv.hour at 
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Comment #38 posted by freedom fighter on October 01, 2001 at 19:38:57 PT
It happend last nite? What's going on? ff
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Comment #37 posted by Silent_Observer on October 01, 2001 at 15:39:47 PT
Very distressing indeed..
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Comment #36 posted by greenfox on October 01, 2001 at 14:39:20 PT
States' rights? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!
Come on people, you didn't REALLY fall for Bushy-wushy's campaign promises, did you? If so, you may be too naieve for this reform movement. ;) I mean seriously, this man has broken his word so many times, I'm surprised Satan doesn't come up and take him early. Oh well, it doesn't matter. What DOES matter is what's happening up north. If I lived in Canada, my gf would be able to grow for her condition. ARE YOUR PASSPORTS READY PEOPLE? (That's IF we don't go under border closings before then..)\\\sly\\\
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Comment #35 posted by ekim on October 01, 2001 at 14:32:59 PT:
Wonder why no mention of Burma
Has anyone heard of this. September 29, 2001 Dear All, The other shoe has finally dropped. We have been waiting since the Supreme
Court decision and the appointment of old time drug warriors to the
positions of Attorney General and DEA Chief to see if the Federal
Government was going to be true to it's pledge of respect for State's
Rights or whether the Feds would continue to hound medical cannabis
patients regardless of State laws. Last night, physician, humanitarian, caregiver, and patient, Dr. Mollie Fry
was subject to an unprecedented raid by the DEA. Dr. Fry's Cool California
Center has assisted some 5,000 patients in Northern California. Her
practice combines medical review, legal consultation, and cannabis
education. Both her clinic and home were assaulted by DEA agents with guns
drawn. Both Dr. Fry's personal medical garden and her patients records were
seized. Local authorities claim there was nothing they could do to alter or
delay the Federal plan to crack down on the El Dorado County physician. Patients, caregivers, and the health community throughout the nation have
been placed on notice that the Federal Government has no respect for State
Laws providing for the compassionate use of medical cannabis. Dr. Fry,
herself a cancer patient, has provided invaluable assistance to many
California patients. An educational seminar infiltrated by DEA agents with
falsified physician recommendations was the proximate cause of the raid. No
charges have yet been filed but a large medical practice operating within
State Law has been effectively closed. Thousands of patients and families
will suffer from this blow. In our nations most terrible time of trouble and anxiety, when we look to
the Federal Government to protect us from terror, we have now witnessed
first hand how distorted the governments priorities are. We will never know
how many DEA agents have been tracking Dr. Fry or for how long. We don't
know what resources will be devoted to her prosecution should there be one.
A single agent and a single prosecution is too many. We have a real war of terror on our hands and can little afford to continue
the utterly discredited phony war on medical cannabis. There is a great
deal at stake with this DEA precedent. Patients rights have been violated.
States Rights have been ignored. Resources so desperately needed to protect
us have instead been used against us. I add this short personal observation. I have been privileged to review Dr.
Fry's Center first hand. I have sat on educational panels with Dr. Fry and
engaged her in numerous conversations. There is nothing phony or criminal
about this courageous Christian doctor who administers to the needy as her
conscience dictates, her scripture commands, and the State of California
allows. We must come to her aid in every way possible. Yours in faith and service, 
Jay R. Cavanaugh, Ph.D., 
National Director 
American Alliance for Medical Cannabis 
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Comment #34 posted by greenfox on October 01, 2001 at 13:51:52 PT
Opium vs. heroin (in response to FoM)
I reccomend everyone here read the following book:Dale Pendell's Pharmako/PoeiaThis book, (priced at a little under $20.00,) takes a facts-only look at most common drugs. In this book, he speaks also of opium, heroin, etc. Aside from that, here's my $0.02:Opium is a wonderful painkiller. I have grown poppies in the past, and even just chewing the bulb takes away great deals of pain from those who use it. However, constant abuse = tollerance. Or, as Pendell put it,:"In response to continued flooding of the endorphin receptors by opiates, the brain grows NEW receptor sites. Any reduction then in the amount of morphine (opiates) leaves the brain in disequilibrium on the excess of pain side."(also a Pendell quote, as he equates Opium, (morphine,) in likeness with the god of dreams Morphius, (whom morphine, the first discovered alkoloid was named after,,,):"Approach the god of dreams with your sword drawn."Good point. :) In summation: for medical use, opium is great. Just like the coca quids from the coca bush won't kill you, either. But when man starts extracting, synthesizing, and other such nonsense- ie cocaine, heroin - what you are left with is a TAMPERED substance not suitable for consumption. Which is why unprocessed herb, oh so natural as it is, poses less health consequences than ciggerettes (modified, chemical things..)oh well sly in green and of course, damnit, you people know the rest. :)-gf
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Comment #33 posted by Cannabis Dave on October 01, 2001 at 12:46:05 PT
"Opium for the Masses"
"Opium for the Masses" is the name of a cool little book which will tell you all about growing opium poppies and preparing opium. "Opium - A History" (by Martin Booth) is a fascinating book about opium poppies influence on our history, which was/is HUGE! Poppies are extremely easy to grow in most parts of the country, and are considered legal for ornamental purposes, in most places. Technically they ARE illegal to grow/possess (ANY part of the plant is illegal), but they grow all over most cities in America anyway (especially in coastal cities), so they are "virtually" legal. When the poppies are ripe you can just eat the fresh pods to become opiated (they taste OK) - they don't have to be "prepared" at all to work! Most the the opium grown in Afghanistan is converted to heroin for the European and Asian markets - very little of it winds up in the USA according to the DEA, so why did Bush give the Taliban $43 MILLION (USA taxpayers money) recently for ending poppy growing? If we are going to use taxpayers money for a "war on drugs", one would think it would be for fighting drugs in our own country. Someone was asking about the difference between opium and heroin here, and heroin is of course much more potent, addictive, and dangerous than opium is. Opium can be very addictive too, and the withdrawal period lasts much longer than withdrawal from heroin (less intense though); therefore an opium habit would be harder to kick for most people. I don't have that problem myself, because I only use opium once a year when the poppies are ripe (at about the Summer Solstice here in the Great NW). I don't keep any raw opium around for medicinal use though, because of the illegal status of the substance, but I think that it should be permissable for American citizens to grow their own poppies for medicinal use, and cannabis too of course! Benjamin Franklin was a opium addict, as were many of our founding fathers. Someday poppies will be made technically legal to grow, just as it's legal to grow your own tobacco or make your own alcoholic beverages, and hopefully the medicinal cannabis movement will lead to it's acceptance too . It would take about an acre of poppies to supply one opium addict for an entire year, and it's highy unlikely that people would become addicts from the small amount of opium they'd net from a small personal poppy patch. I very much doubt that we'd see an epidemic of opium addicts if it was made legal to grow/manufacture your own poppies/opium. Making herbs/plants illegal is absurd and unconstitional, in my opinion. Many very dangerous and poisonous plants are legal, so outlawing a few because they happen to have a "euphoric" effect is illogical and counter-productive. When you think about it - what really is the motivation behind making pleasurable plants illegal? Perhaps the people who make those laws do so hoping they can somehow profit from the plants that everyone seems to want? The "war on drugs" fuels a multi-BILLION dollar prison-industrial complex in this country, while making evil criminals rich. I'm outraged at our governments continued pig-headed attitude towards recreational drugs, ESPECIALLY CANNABIS! The fact that "hemp" is the reason cannabis was made illegal, makes me even more outraged. The DEA still spends billions of taxpayer dollars for eradicating "hemp" plants that have no value as a drug - that says it all!
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Comment #32 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 11:18:56 PT
I do not know the author. But I can recheck with the friend who sent it to me and see. I will keep you posted! Patrick
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Comment #31 posted by Ethan Russo MD on October 01, 2001 at 11:04:43 PT:
Need the name of this book. I knew some of this stuff, but this is extremely well presented.
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Comment #30 posted by FoM on October 01, 2001 at 11:03:20 PT
Thanks Patrick
I haven't read them all Patrick but I will. As long as man has been on this earth and believed in a Higher Being we have used God as justification for doing bad things to people who don't believe the same way. Because we aren't willing to really listen to how others believe, but say they can believe what they want but they are wrong, we will spin our wheels. I saw a South Park Episode where God came to town and he looked really funny. They said God is that you and He said yes. They said but you don't look like what I thought. He said well what do you think God looks like. I know it is South Park but it is true. I haven't been introduced to God and neither has anyone else so why do we lord it over other religions?
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Comment #29 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 10:55:51 PT
Apologies to the author
I believe giving credit where it is due. I do not know who wrote this piece. I do not want to infringe their copyright. I only wanted to share this article with the vistors of this site. I make no self induced profit or gain from posting this work here! If anybody recognnizes the author, I would certainly like to know their name.Thanks FoM for running a very cool site!!! Patrick
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Comment #28 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 10:51:11 PT
Last bit
"ULTIMATELY, the struggle of the fundamentalists is against two enemies, secularism and modernism. The war against secularism is conscious and explicit, and there is by now a whole literature denouncing secularism as an evil neo-pagan force in the modern world and attributing it variously to the Jews, the West, and the United States. The war against modernity is for the most part neither conscious nor explicit, and is directed against the whole process of change that has taken place in the Islamic world in the past century or more and has transformed the political, economic, social, and even cultural structures of Muslim countries. Islamic fundamentalism has given an aim and a form to the otherwise aimless and formless resentment and anger of the Muslim masses at the forces that have devalued their traditional values and loyalties and, in the final analysis, robbed them of their beliefs, their aspirations, their dignity, and to an increasing extent even their livelihood.There is something in the religious culture of Islam which inspired, in even the humblest peasant or peddler, a dignity and a courtesy toward others never exceeded and rarely equalled in other civilizations. And yet, in moments of upheaval and disruption, when the deeper passions are stirred, this dignity and courtesy toward others can give way to an explosive mixture of rage and hatred which impels even the government of an ancient and civilized country -- even the spokesman of a great spiritual and ethical religion -- to espouse kidnapping and assassination, and try to find, in the life of their Prophet, approval and indeed precedent for such actions.The instinct of the masses is not false in locating the ultimate source of these cataclysmic changes in the West and in attributing the disruption of their old way of life to the impact of Western domination, Western influence, or Western precept and example. And since the United States is the legitimate heir of European civilization and the recognized and unchallenged leader of the West, the United States has inherited the resulting grievances and become the focus for the pent-up hate and anger. Two examples may suffice. In November of 1979 an angry mob attacked and burned the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan. The stated cause of the crowd's anger was the seizure of the Great Mosque in Mecca by a group of Muslim dissidents -- an event in which there was no American involvement whatsoever. Almost ten years later, in February of 1989, again in Islamabad, the USIS center was attacked by angry crowds, this time to protest the publication of Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses. Rushdie is a British citizen of Indian birth, and his book had been published five months previously in England. But what provoked the mob's anger, and also the Ayatollah Khomeini's subsequent pronouncement of a death sentence on the author, was the publication of the book in the United States.It should by now be clear that we are facing a mood and a movement far transcending the level of issues and policies and the governments that pursue them. This is no less than a clash of civilizations -- the perhaps irrational but surely historic reaction of an ancient rival against our Judeo-Christian heritage, our secular present, and the worldwide expansion of both. It is crucially important that we on our side should not be provoked into an equally historic but also equally irrational reaction against that rival.Not all the ideas imported from the West by Western intruders or native Westernizers have been rejected. Some have been accepted by even the most radical Islamic fundamentalists, usually without acknowledgment of source, and suffering a sea change into something rarely rich but often strange. One such was political freedom, with the associated notions and practices of representation, election, and constitutional government. Even the Islamic Republic of Iran has a written constitution and an elected assembly, as well as a kind of episcopate, for none of which is there any prescription in Islamic teaching or any precedent in the Islamic past. All these institutions are clearly adapted from Western models. Muslim states have also retained many of the cultural and social customs of the West and the symbols that express them, such as the form and style of male (and to a much lesser extent female) clothing, notably in the military. The use of Western-invented guns and tanks and planes is a military necessity, but the continued use of fitted tunics and peaked caps is a cultural choice. From constitutions to Coca-Cola, from tanks and television to T-shirts, the symbols and artifacts, and through them the ideas, of the West have retained -- even strengthened -- their appeal.THE movement nowadays called fundamentalism is not the only Islamic tradition. There are others, more tolerant, more open, that helped to inspire the great achievements of Islamic civilization in the past, and we may hope that these other traditions will in time prevail. But before this issue is decided there will be a hard struggle, in which we of the West can do little or nothing. Even the attempt might do harm, for these are issues that Muslims must decide among themselves. And in the meantime we must take great care on all sides to avoid the danger of a new era of religious wars, arising from the exacerbation of differences and the revival of ancient prejudices.To this end we must strive to achieve a better appreciation of other religious and political cultures, through the study of their history, their literature, and their achievements. At the same time, we may hope that they will try to achieve a better understanding of ours, and especially that they will understand and respect, even if they do not choose to adopt for themselves, our Western perception of the proper relationship between religion and politics. To describe this perception I shall end as I began, with a quotation from an American President, this time not the justly celebrated Thomas Jefferson but the somewhat unjustly neglected John Tyler, who, in a letter dated July 10, 1843, gave eloquent and indeed prophetic statement to the principle of religious freedom: 
The United States have adventured upon a great and noble experiment, which is believed to have been hazarded in the absence of all previous precedent -- that of total separation of Church and State. No religious establishment by law exists among us. The conscience is left free from all restraint and each is permitted to worship his Maker after his own judgement. The offices of the Government are open alike to all. No tithes are levied to support an established Hierarchy, nor is the fallible judgement of man set up as the sure and infallible creed of faith. The Mahommedan, if he will to come among us would have the privilege guaranteed to him by the constitution to worship according to the Koran; and the East Indian might erect a shrine to Brahma if it so pleased him. Such is the spirit of toleration inculcated by our political Institutions.... The Hebrew persecuted and down trodden in other regions takes up his abode among us with none to make him afraid.... and the Aegis of the Government is over him to defend and protect him. Such is the great experiment which we have tried, and such are the happy fruits which have resulted from it; our system of free government would be imperfect without it.The body may be oppressed and manacled and yet survive; but if the mind of man be fettered, its energies and faculties perish, and what remains is of the earth, earthly. Mind should be free as the light or as the air."
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Comment #27 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 10:49:41 PT
a little more to go
"A Clash of CivilizationsTHE origins of secularism in the west may be found in two circumstances -- in early Christian teachings and, still more, experience, which created two institutions, Church and State; and in later Christian conflicts, which drove the two apart. Muslims, too, had their religious disagreements, but there was nothing remotely approaching the ferocity of the Christian struggles between Protestants and Catholics, which devastated Christian Europe in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries and finally drove Christians in desperation to evolve a doctrine of the separation of religion from the state. Only by depriving religious institutions of coercive power, it seemed, could Christendom restrain the murderous intolerance and persecution that Christians had visited on followers of other religions and, most of all, on those who professed other forms of their own.Muslims experienced no such need and evolved no such doctrine. There was no need for secularism in Islam, and even its pluralism was very different from that of the pagan Roman Empire, so vividly described by Edward Gibbon when he remarked that "the various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful." Islam was never prepared, either in theory or in practice, to accord full equality to those who held other beliefs and practiced other forms of worship. It did, however, accord to the holders of partial truth a degree of practical as well as theoretical tolerance rarely paralleled in the Christian world until the West adopted a measure of secularism in the late-seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.At first the Muslim response to Western civilization was one of admiration and emulation -- an immense respect for the achievements of the West, and a desire to imitate and adopt them. This desire arose from a keen and growing awareness of the weakness, poverty, and backwardness of the Islamic world as compared with the advancing West. The disparity first became apparent on the battlefield but soon spread to other areas of human activity. Muslim writers observed and described the wealth and power of the West, its science and technology, its manufactures, and its forms of government. For a time the secret of Western success was seen to lie in two achievements: economic advancement and especially industry; political institutions and especially freedom. Several generations of reformers and modernizers tried to adapt these and introduce them to their own countries, in the hope that they would thereby be able to achieve equality with the West and perhaps restore their lost superiority.In our own time this mood of admiration and emulation has, among many Muslims, given way to one of hostility and rejection. In part this mood is surely due to a feeling of humiliation -- a growing awareness, among the heirs of an old, proud, and long dominant civilization, of having been overtaken, overborne, and overwhelmed by those whom they regarded as their inferiors. In part this mood is due to events in the Western world itself. One factor of major importance was certainly the impact of two great suicidal wars, in which Western civilization tore itself apart, bringing untold destruction to its own and other peoples, and in which the belligerents conducted an immense propaganda effort, in the Islamic world and elsewhere, to discredit and undermine each other. The message they brought found many listeners, who were all the more ready to respond in that their own experience of Western ways was not happy. The introduction of Western commercial, financial, and industrial methods did indeed bring great wealth, but it accrued to transplanted Westerners and members of Westernized minorities, and to only a few among the mainstream Muslim population. In time these few became more numerous, but they remained isolated from the masses, differing from them even in their dress and style of life. Inevitably they were seen as agents of and collaborators with what was once again regarded as a hostile world. Even the political institutions that had come from the West were discredited, being judged not by their Western originals but by their local imitations, installed by enthusiastic Muslim reformers. These, operating in a situation beyond their control, using imported and inappropriate methods that they did not fully understand, were unable to cope with the rapidly developing crises and were one by one overthrown. For vast numbers of Middle Easterners, Western-style economic methods brought poverty, Western-style political institutions brought tyranny, even Western-style warfare brought defeat. It is hardly surprising that so many were willing to listen to voices telling them that the old Islamic ways were best and that their only salvation was to throw aside the pagan innovations of the reformers and return to the True Path that God had prescribed for his people."
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Comment #26 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 10:45:23 PT
even more
"THERE are other difficulties in the way of accepting imperialism as an explanation of Muslim hostility, even if we define imperialism narrowly and specifically, as the invasion and domination of Muslim countries by non-Muslims. If the hostility is directed against imperialism in that sense, why has it been so much stronger against Western Europe, which has relinquished all its Muslim possessions and dependencies, than against Russia, which still rules, with no light hand, over many millions of reluctant Muslim subjects and over ancient Muslim cities and countries? And why should it include the United States, which, apart from a brief interlude in the Muslim-minority area of the Philippines, has never ruled any Muslim population? The last surviving European empire with Muslim subjects, that of the Soviet Union, far from being the target of criticism and attack, has been almost exempt. Even the most recent repressions of Muslim revolts in the southern and central Asian republics of the USSR incurred no more than relatively mild words of expostulation, coupled with a disclaimer of any desire to interfere in what are quaintly called the "internal affairs" of the USSR and a request for the preservation of order and tranquillity on the frontier.One reason for this somewhat surprising restraint is to be found in the nature of events in Soviet Azerbaijan. Islam is obviously an important and potentially a growing element in the Azerbaijani sense of identity, but it is not at present a dominant element, and the Azerbaijani movement has more in common with the liberal patriotism of Europe than with Islamic fundamentalism. Such a movement would not arouse the sympathy of the rulers of the Islamic Republic. It might even alarm them, since a genuinely democratic national state run by the people of Soviet Azerbaijan would exercise a powerful attraction on their kinsmen immediately to the south, in Iranian Azerbaijan.Another reason for this relative lack of concern for the 50 million or more Muslims under Soviet rule may be a calculation of risk and advantage. The Soviet Union is near, along the northern frontiers of Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan; America and even Western Europe are far away. More to the point, it has not hitherto been the practice of the Soviets to quell disturbances with water cannon and rubber bullets, with TV cameras in attendance, or to release arrested persons on bail and allow them access to domestic and foreign media. The Soviets do not interview their harshest critics on prime time, or tempt them with teaching, lecturing, and writing engagements. On the contrary, their ways of indicating displeasure with criticism can often be quite disagreeable.But fear of reprisals, though no doubt important, is not the only or perhaps even the principal reason for the relatively minor place assigned to the Soviet Union, as compared with the West, in the demonology of fundamentalism. After all, the great social and intellectual and economic changes that have transformed most of the Islamic world, and given rise to such commonly denounced Western evils as consumerism and secularism, emerged from the West, not from the Soviet Union. No one could accuse the Soviets of consumerism; their materialism is philosophic -- to be precise, dialectical -- and has little or nothing to do in practice with providing the good things of life. Such provision represents another kind of materialism, often designated by its opponents as crass. It is associated with the capitalist West and not with the communist East, which has practiced, or at least imposed on its subjects, a degree of austerity that would impress a Sufi saint.Nor were the Soviets, until very recently, vulnerable to charges of secularism, the other great fundamentalist accusation against the West. Though atheist, they were not godless, and had in fact created an elaborate state apparatus to impose the worship of their gods -- an apparatus with its own orthodoxy, a hierarchy to define and enforce it, and an armed inquisition to detect and extirpate heresy. The separation of religion from the state does not mean the establishment of irreligion by the state, still less the forcible imposition of an anti-religious philosophy. Soviet secularism, like Soviet consumerism, holds no temptation for the Muslim masses, and is losing what appeal it had for Muslim intellectuals. More than ever before it is Western capitalism and democracy that provide an authentic and attractive alternative to traditional ways of thought and life. Fundamentalist leaders are not mistaken in seeing in Western civilization the greatest challenge to the way of life that they wish to retain or restore for their people."
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Comment #25 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 10:42:57 PT
cont. yet again
"THIS revulsion against America, more generally against the West, is by no means limited to the Muslim world; nor have Muslims, with the exception of the Iranian mullahs and their disciples elsewhere, experienced and exhibited the more virulent forms of this feeling. The mood of disillusionment and hostility has affected many other parts of the world, and has even reached some elements in the United States. It is from these last, speaking for themselves and claiming to speak for the oppressed peoples of the Third World, that the most widely publicized explanations -- and justifications -- of this rejection of Western civilization and its values have of late been heard.The accusations are familiar. We of the West are accused of sexism, racism, and imperialism, institutionalized in patriarchy and slavery, tyranny and exploitation. To these charges, and to others as heinous, we have no option but to plead guilty -- not as Americans, nor yet as Westerners, but simply as human beings, as members of the human race. In none of these sins are we the only sinners, and in some of them we are very far from being the worst. The treatment of women in the Western world, and more generally in Christendom, has always been unequal and often oppressive, but even at its worst it was rather better than the rule of polygamy and concubinage that has otherwise been the almost universal lot of womankind on this planet.Is racism, then, the main grievance? Certainly the word figures prominently in publicity addressed to Western, Eastern European, and some Third World audiences. It figures less prominently in what is written and published for home consumption, and has become a generalized and meaningless term of abuse -- rather like "fascism," which is nowadays imputed to opponents even by spokesmen for one-party, nationalist dictatorships of various complexions and shirt colors.Slavery is today universally denounced as an offense against humanity, but within living memory it has been practiced and even defended as a necessary institution, established and regulated by divine law. The peculiarity of the peculiar institution, as Americans once called it, lay not in its existence but in its abolition. Westerners were the first to break the consensus of acceptance and to outlaw slavery, first at home, then in the other territories they controlled, and finally wherever in the world they were able to exercise power or influence -- in a word, by means of imperialism.Is imperialism, then, the grievance? Some Western powers, and in a sense Western civilization as a whole, have certainly been guilty of imperialism, but are we really to believe that in the expansion of Western Europe there was a quality of moral delinquency lacking in such earlier, relatively innocent expansions as those of the Arabs or the Mongols or the Ottomans, or in more recent expansions such as that which brought the rulers of Muscovy to the Baltic, the Black Sea, the Caspian, the Hindu Kush, and the Pacific Ocean? In having practiced sexism, racism, and imperialism, the West was merely following the common practice of mankind through the millennia of recorded history. Where it is distinct from all other civilizations is in having recognized, named, and tried, not entirely without success, to remedy these historic diseases. And that is surely a matter for congratulation, not condemnation. We do not hold Western medical science in general, or Dr. Parkinson and Dr. Alzheimer in particular, responsible for the diseases they diagnosed and to which they gave their names.Of all these offenses the one that is most widely, frequently, and vehemently denounced is undoubtedly imperialism -- sometimes just Western, sometimes Eastern (that is, Soviet) and Western alike. But the way this term is used in the literature of Islamic fundamentalists often suggests that it may not carry quite the same meaning for them as for its Western critics. In many of these writings the term "imperialist" is given a distinctly religious significance, being used in association, and sometimes interchangeably, with "missionary," and denoting a form of attack that includes the Crusades as well as the modern colonial empires. One also sometimes gets the impression that the offense of imperialism is not -- as for Western critics -- the domination by one people over another but rather the allocation of roles in this relationship. What is truly evil and unacceptable is the domination of infidels over true believers. For true believers to rule misbelievers is proper and natural, since this provides for the maintenance of the holy law, and gives the misbelievers both the opportunity and the incentive to embrace the true faith. But for misbelievers to rule over true believers is blasphemous and unnatural, since it leads to the corruption of religion and morality in society, and to the flouting or even the abrogation of God's law. This may help us to understand the current troubles in such diverse places as Ethiopian Eritrea, Indian Kashmir, Chinese Sinkiang, and Yugoslav Kossovo, in all of which Muslim populations are ruled by non-Muslim governments. It may also explain why spokesmen for the new Muslim minorities in Western Europe demand for Islam a degree of legal protection which those countries no longer give to Christianity and have never given to Judaism. Nor, of course, did the governments of the countries of origin of these Muslim spokesmen ever accord such protection to religions other than their own. In their perception, there is no contradiction in these attitudes. The true faith, based on God's final revelation, must be protected from insult and abuse; other faiths, being either false or incomplete, have no right to any such protection.
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Comment #24 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 10:35:50 PT
I don't mind posting this article here with your permission FoM. It is just that I thought it would get confusing and bothersome to read it a section at a time backwards! Here is another chunk..."Some Familiar AccusationsAmong the components in the mood of anti-Westernism, and more especially of anti-Americanism, were certain intellectual influences coming from Europe. One of these was from Germany, where a negative view of America formed part of a school of thought by no means limited to the Nazis but including writers as diverse as Rainer Maria Rilke, Ernst Junger, and Martin Heidegger. In this perception, America was the ultimate example of civilization without culture: rich and comfortable, materially advanced but soulless and artificial; assembled or at best constructed, not grown; mechanical, not organic; technologically complex but lacking the spirituality and vitality of the rooted, human, national cultures of the Germans and other "authentic" peoples. German philosophy, and particularly the philosophy of education, enjoyed a considerable vogue among Arab and some other Muslim intellectuals in the thirties and early forties, and this philosophic anti-Americanism was part of the message.After the collapse of the Third Reich and the temporary ending of German influence, another philosophy, even more anti-American, took its place -- the Soviet version of Marxism, with a denunciation of Western capitalism and of America as its most advanced and dangerous embodiment. And when Soviet influence began to fade, there was yet another to take its place, or at least to supplement its working -- the new mystique of Third Worldism, emanating from Western Europe, particularly France, and later also from the United States, and drawing at times on both these earlier philosophies. This mystique was helped by the universal human tendency to invent a golden age in the past, and the specifically European propensity to locate it elsewhere. A new variant of the old golden-age myth placed it in the Third World, where the innocence of the non-Western Adam and Eve was ruined by the Western serpent. This view took as axiomatic the goodness and purity of the East and the wickedness of the West, expanding in an exponential curve of evil from Western Europe to the United States. These ideas, too, fell on fertile ground, and won widespread support.But though these imported philosophies helped to provide intellectual statement for anti-Westernism and anti-Americanism, they did not cause it, and certainly they do not explain the widespread anti-Westernism that made so many in the Middle East and elsewhere in the Islamic world receptive to such ideas.It must surely be clear that what won support for such totally diverse doctrines was not Nazi race theory, which can have had little appeal for Arabs, or Soviet atheistic communism, which can have had little appeal for Muslims, but rather their common anti-Westernism. Nazism and communism were the main forces opposed to the West, both as a way of life and as a power in the world, and as such they could count on at least the sympathy if not the support of those who saw in the West their principal enemy.But why the hostility in the first place? If we turn from the general to the specific, there is no lack of individual policies and actions, pursued and taken by individual Western governments, that have aroused the passionate anger of Middle Eastern and other Islamic peoples. Yet all too often, when these policies are abandoned and the problems resolved, there is only a local and temporary alleviation. The French have left Algeria, the British have left Egypt, the Western oil companies have left their oil wells, the westernizing Shah has left Iran -- yet the generalized resentment of the fundamentalists and other extremists against the West and its friends remains and grows and is not appeased.The cause most frequently adduced for anti-American feeling among Muslims today is American support for Israel. This support is certainly a factor of importance, increasing with nearness and involvement. But here again there are some oddities, difficult to explain in terms of a single, simple cause. In the early days of the foundation of Israel, while the United States maintained a certain distance, the Soviet Union granted immediate de jure recognition and support, and arms sent from a Soviet satellite, Czechoslovakia, saved the infant state of Israel from defeat and death in its first weeks of life. Yet there seems to have been no great ill will toward the Soviets for these policies, and no corresponding good will toward the United States. In 1956 it was the United States that intervened, forcefully and decisively, to secure the withdrawal of Israeli, British, and French forces from Egypt -- yet in the late fifties and sixties it was to the Soviets, not America, that the rulers of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and other states turned for arms; it was with the Soviet bloc that they formed bonds of solidarity at the United Nations and in the world generally. More recently, the rulers of the Islamic Republic of Iran have offered the most principled and uncompromising denunciation of Israel and Zionism. Yet even these leaders, before as well as after the death of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, when they decided for reasons of their own to enter into a dialogue of sorts, found it easier to talk to Jerusalem than to Washington. At the same time, Western hostages in Lebanon, many of them devoted to Arab causes and some of them converts to Islam, are seen and treated by their captors as limbs of the Great Satan.Another explanation, more often heard from Muslim dissidents, attributes anti-American feeling to American support for hated regimes, seen as reactionary by radicals, as impious by conservatives, as corrupt and tyrannical by both. This accusation has some plausibility, and could help to explain why an essentially inner-directed, often anti-nationalist movement should turn against a foreign power. But it does not suffice, especially since support for such regimes has been limited both in extent and -- as the Shah discovered -- in effectiveness.Clearly, something deeper is involved than these specific grievances, numerous and important as they may be -- something deeper that turns every disagreement into a problem and makes every problem insoluble."
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Comment #23 posted by FoM on October 01, 2001 at 10:28:15 PT
I lost my first computer because of being attacked or hacked whatever it's called and I haven't forgotten it. I learned not to be so trusting of people. That's sad but some people have weird ideas about what is ok and what is not. There is no news so please continue if you want because then we have something to read and we might learn something. 
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Comment #22 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 10:23:34 PT
ok I'll stop!!!
This article seemed so relevant to your ealier question regarding hate. It doesn't really have much to do with cannabis per se, but cannabis users in my opinion seem to be a more open minded lot, willing to learn, explore, and understand other points of view. Something our "anti/pro-prohibition" brothers and sisters in this country seem to resist yet still. 
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Comment #21 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 10:15:30 PT
cont. #2
"The struggle between these rival systems has now lasted for some fourteen centuries. It began with the advent of Islam, in the seventh century, and has continued virtually to the present day. It has consisted of a long series of attacks and counterattacks, jihads and crusades, conquests and reconquests. For the first thousand years Islam was advancing, Christendom in retreat and under threat. The new faith conquered the old Christian lands of the Levant and North Africa, and invaded Europe, ruling for a while in Sicily, Spain, Portugal, and even parts of France. The attempt by the Crusaders to recover the lost lands of Christendom in the east was held and thrown back, and even the Muslims' loss of southwestern Europe to the Reconquista was amply compensated by the Islamic advance into southeastern Europe, which twice reached as far as Vienna. For the past three hundred years, since the failure of the second Turkish siege of Vienna in 1683 and the rise of the European colonial empires in Asia and Africa, Islam has been on the defensive, and the Christian and post-Christian civilization of Europe and her daughters has brought the whole world, including Islam, within its orbit.FOR a long time now there has been a rising tide of rebellion against this Western paramountcy, and a desire to reassert Muslim values and restore Muslim greatness. The Muslim has suffered successive stages of defeat. The first was his loss of domination in the world, to the advancing power of Russia and the West. The second was the undermining of his authority in his own country, through an invasion of foreign ideas and laws and ways of life and sometimes even foreign rulers or settlers, and the enfranchisement of native non-Muslim elements. The third -- the last straw -- was the challenge to his mastery in his own house, from emancipated women and rebellious children. It was too much to endure, and the outbreak of rage against these alien, infidel, and incomprehensible forces that had subverted his dominance, disrupted his society, and finally violated the sanctuary of his home was inevitable. It was also natural that this rage should be directed primarily against the millennial enemy and should draw its strength from ancient beliefs and loyalties.Europe and her daughters? The phrase may seem odd to Americans, whose national myths, since the beginning of their nationhood and even earlier, have usually defined their very identity in opposition to Europe, as something new and radically different from the old European ways. This is not, however, the way that others have seen it; not often in Europe, and hardly ever elsewhere.Though people of other races and cultures participated, for the most part involuntarily, in the discovery and creation of the Americas, this was, and in the eyes of the rest of the world long remained, a European enterprise, in which Europeans predominated and dominated and to which Europeans gave their languages, their religions, and much of their way of life.For a very long time voluntary immigration to America was almost exclusively European. There were indeed some who came from the Muslim lands in the Middle East and North Africa, but few were Muslims; most were members of the Christian and to a lesser extent the Jewish minorities in those countries. Their departure for America, and their subsequent presence in America, must have strengthened rather than lessened the European image of America in Muslim eyes.In the lands of Islam remarkably little was known about America. At first the voyages of discovery aroused some interest; the only surviving copy of Columbus's own map of America is a Turkish translation and adaptation, still preserved in the Topkapi Palace Museum, in Istanbul. A sixteenth-century Turkish geographer's account of the discovery of the New World, titled The History of Western India, was one of the first books printed in Turkey. But thereafter interest seems to have waned, and not much is said about America in Turkish, Arabic, or other Muslim languages until a relatively late date. A Moroccan ambassador who was in Spain at the time wrote what must surely be the first Arabic account of the American Revolution. The Sultan of Morocco signed a treaty of peace and friendship with the United States in 1787, and thereafter the new republic had a number of dealings, some friendly, some hostile, most commercial, with other Muslim states. These seem to have had little impact on either side. The American Revolution and the American republic to which it gave birth long remained unnoticed and unknown. Even the small but growing American presence in Muslim lands in the nineteenth century -- merchants, consuls, missionaries, and teachers -- aroused little or no curiosity, and is almost unmentioned in the Muslim literature and newspapers of the time.The Second World War, the oil industry, and postwar developments brought many Americans to the Islamic lands; increasing numbers of Muslims also came to America, first as students, then as teachers or businessmen or other visitors, and eventually as immigrants. Cinema and later television brought the American way of life, or at any rate a certain version of it, before countless millions to whom the very name of America had previously been meaningless or unknown. A wide range of American products, particularly in the immediate postwar years, when European competition was virtually eliminated and Japanese competition had not yet arisen, reached into the remotest markets of the Muslim world, winning new customers and, perhaps more important, creating new tastes and ambitions. For some, America represented freedom and justice and opportunity. For many more, it represented wealth and power and success, at a time when these qualities were not regarded as sins or crimes.And then came the great change, when the leaders of a widespread and widening religious revival sought out and identified their enemies as the enemies of God, and gave them "a local habitation and a name" in the Western Hemisphere. Suddenly, or so it seemed, America had become the archenemy, the incarnation of evil, the diabolic opponent of all that is good, and specifically, for Muslims, of Islam. Why?"
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Comment #20 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 10:13:14 PT
"At times this hatred goes beyond hostility to specific interests or actions or policies or even countries and becomes a rejection of Western civilization as such, not only what it does but what it is, and the principles and values that it practices and professes. These are indeed seen as innately evil, and those who promote or accept them as the "enemies of God."This phrase, which recurs so frequently in the language of the Iranian leadership, in both their judicial proceedings and their political pronouncements, must seem very strange to the modern outsider, whether religious or secular. The idea that God has enemies, and needs human help in order to identify and dispose of them, is a little difficult to assimilate. It is not, however, all that alien. The concept of the enemies of God is familiar in preclassical and classical antiquity, and in both the Old and New Testaments, as well as in the Koran. A particularly relevant version of the idea occurs in the dualist religions of ancient Iran, whose cosmogony assumed not one but two supreme powers. The Zoroastrian devil, unlike the Christian or Muslim or Jewish devil, is not one of God's creatures performing some of God's more mysterious tasks but an independent power, a supreme force of evil engaged in a cosmic struggle against God. This belief influenced a number of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish sects, through Manichaeism and other routes. The almost forgotten religion of the Manichees has given its name to the perception of problems as a stark and simple conflict between matching forces of pure good and pure evil.The Koran is of course strictly monotheistic, and recognizes one God, one universal power only. There is a struggle in human hearts between good and evil, between God's commandments and the tempter, but this is seen as a struggle ordained by God, with its outcome preordained by God, serving as a test of mankind, and not, as in some of the old dualist religions, a struggle in which mankind has a crucial part to play in bringing about the victory of good over evil. Despite this monotheism, Islam, like Judaism and Christianity, was at various stages influenced, especially in Iran, by the dualist idea of a cosmic clash of good and evil, light and darkness, order and chaos, truth and falsehood, God and the Adversary, variously known as devil, Iblis, Satan, and by other names.The Rise of the House of UnbeliefIN Islam the struggle of good and evil very soon acquired political and even military dimensions. Muhammad, it will be recalled, was not only a prophet and a teacher, like the founders of other religions; he was also the head of a polity and of a community, a ruler and a soldier. Hence his struggle involved a state and its armed forces. If the fighters in the war for Islam, the holy war "in the path of God," are fighting for God, it follows that their opponents are fighting against God. And since God is in principle the sovereign, the supreme head of the Islamic state -- and the Prophet and, after the Prophet, the caliphs are his vicegerents -- then God as sovereign commands the army. The army is God's army and the enemy is God's enemy. The duty of God's soldiers is to dispatch God's enemies as quickly as possible to the place where God will chastise them -- that is to say, the afterlife.Clearly related to this is the basic division of mankind as perceived in Islam. Most, probably all, human societies have a way of distinguishing between themselves and others: insider and outsider, in-group and out-group, kinsman or neighbor and foreigner. These definitions not only define the outsider but also, and perhaps more particularly, help to define and illustrate our perception of ourselves.In the classical Islamic view, to which many Muslims are beginning to return, the world and all mankind are divided into two: the House of Islam, where the Muslim law and faith prevail, and the rest, known as the House of Unbelief or the House of War, which it is the duty of Muslims ultimately to bring to Islam. But the greater part of the world is still outside Islam, and even inside the Islamic lands, according to the view of the Muslim radicals, the faith of Islam has been undermined and the law of Islam has been abrogated. The obligation of holy war therefore begins at home and continues abroad, against the same infidel enemy.Like every other civilization known to human history, the Muslim world in its heyday saw itself as the center of truth and enlightenment, surrounded by infidel barbarians whom it would in due course enlighten and civilize. But between the different groups of barbarians there was a crucial difference. The barbarians to the east and the south were polytheists and idolaters, offering no serious threat and no competition at all to Islam. In the north and west, in contrast, Muslims from an early date recognized a genuine rival -- a competing world religion, a distinctive civilization inspired by that religion, and an empire that, though much smaller than theirs, was no less ambitious in its claims and aspirations. This was the entity known to itself and others as Christendom, a term that was long almost identical with Europe."
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Comment #19 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 10:07:25 PT
I totally understand your feelings regarding email. I had years ago been bombed with an email that turned my hard drive at the time into bits of imovable data. Sorta like a pac man eating all the free space. Anyway, if you don't mind I will add the next few paragraphs. I do not know the author of this. It seems to have come from a book. Forwarded to me by a friend of a friend etc.!"Islam is one of the world's great religions. Let me be explicit about what I, as a historian of Islam who is not a Muslim, mean by that. Islam has brought comfort and peace of mind to countless millions of men and women. It has given dignity and meaning to drab and impoverished lives. It has taught people of different races to live in brotherhood and people of different creeds to live side by side in reasonable tolerance. It inspired a great civilization in which others besides Muslims lived creative and useful lives and which, by its achievement, enriched the whole world. But Islam, like other religions, has also known periods when it inspired in some of its followers a mood of hatred and violence. It is our misfortune that part, though by no means all or even most, of the Muslim world is now going through such a period, and that much, though again not all, of that hatred is directed against us.We should not exaggerate the dimensions of the problem. The Muslim world is far from unanimous in its rejection of the West, nor have the Muslim regions of the Third World been the most passionate and the most extreme in their hostility. There are still significant numbers, in some quarters perhaps a majority, of Muslims with whom we share certain basic cultural and moral, social and political, beliefs and aspirations; there is still an imposing Western presence -- cultural, economic, diplomatic -- in Muslim lands, some of which are Western allies. Certainly nowhere in the Muslim world, in the Middle East or elsewhere, has American policy suffered disasters or encountered problems comparable to those in Southeast Asia or Central America. There is no Cuba, no Vietnam, in the Muslim world, and no place where American forces are involved as combatants or even as "advisers." But there is a Libya, an Iran, and a Lebanon, and a surge of hatred that distresses, alarms, and above all baffles Americans."
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Comment #18 posted by FoM on October 01, 2001 at 09:45:35 PT
I'm sure opium is much safer than heroin. I have never done any heroin or opium but just the fact that opium is pure and is from a plant I would think it is much safer and probably harder to get addicted too. I think having opium for an emergency would probably be a good idea but most of us would smoke it up if we had a hangnail. LOL! Just kidding!
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Comment #17 posted by Poisoned1528Days on October 01, 2001 at 09:26:40 PT
opium vs heroin
Is smoking opium much safer than
injecting heroin? It seems like it would 
be because there is no needle/blood 
stuff going on. Why do they not just 
import the opium? I would not mind keeping
 a couple
grams around just in case I got real sick.
( Like the flu or something )
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Comment #16 posted by Sudaca on October 01, 2001 at 09:10:40 PT
Like dddd says, there's us and us...There's something that seems hard to understand for you Americans. The antipathy that seems to be so easy to find outside isn't against any particular real live citizen of the United States; it's against the idea... You have most of the world watching the Dukes of Hazzard , T.J Hooker, Kojack, Superman, Gilligan's island and other such cultural programs. You have the idea of hollywood, superfriends, the hall of justice (truth , justice , the american way). There's this collective dream which the whole world participates in thanks to mass media, in whatever language (and the farther you get from the states , the cheesier the reruns).. and people buy it. At the heart of these images there's the hope that the "ideals" shown really matter, they really drive America on. 
And then you get foreign policy; with many many countries getting the short end of the stick when dealing with the US. 
The thing is that people choke on the "leaders of the free world" when they see that the rhetoric and the practice are quite different. 
Add to the mix that most of the world lives below the poverty line as defined by the US, and are aware of it given the collective nature of our TV dreams, and you get a group of pissed of people.YET, it doesn't mean the Americans are hated; maybe resented; but not hated. Hatred especially to the extent of terrorist attacks is only harbored by people who are living in a different world than most.
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Comment #15 posted by FoM on October 01, 2001 at 09:04:18 PT
Hi Patrick
I was wondering if you were ok. Good to know you are. Hang on to the e-mails because I am not using my email very much because of possible viruses. I keep it to a minimum. People e-mail me with questions that I really can't answer and most people use a hotmail or other type email and I don't feel comfortable in answering them. I remember that I was told to be careful about responding to emails because once a person has your email they can cause you problems so I have kept it to a minimum. I hope everyone understands but you don't know if a person is a friend or a foe. That's why I like using a comment section because to me it might be a little safer but I could be wrong. I have a heavy filter on my email but things still slip through.
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Comment #14 posted by Patrick on October 01, 2001 at 08:46:31 PT
Hatred of America & Western Civilization
Hi FoM! Been refreshing my survival skills in the wild woods of our great land! I had several emails awaiting my return that provide insight to your question. They are quite lenghty to read. I can send you the file in MSWord or forward the emails. These are way to lengthy to paste here. Following is an excerpt from one..." IN one of his letters Thomas Jefferson remarked that in matters of religion "the maxim of civil government" should be reversed and we should rather say, "Divided we stand, united, we fall." In this remark Jefferson was setting forth with classic terseness an idea that has come to be regarded as essentially American: the separation of Church and State. This idea was not entirely new; it had some precedents in the writings of Spinoza, Locke, and the philosophers of the European Enlightenment. It was in the United States, however, that the principle was first given the force of law and gradually, in the course of two centuries, became a reality.If the idea that religion and politics should be separated is relatively new, dating back a mere three hundred years, the idea that they are distinct dates back almost to the beginnings of Christianity. Christians are enjoined in their Scriptures to "render ... unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's." While opinions have differed as to the real meaning of this phrase, it has generally been interpreted as legitimizing a situation in which two institutions exist side by side, each with its own laws and chain of authority -- one concerned with religion, called the Church, the other concerned with politics, called the State. And since they are two, they may be joined or separated, subordinate or independent, and conflicts may arise between them over questions of demarcation and jurisdiction.This formulation of the problems posed by the relations between religion and politics, and the possible solutions to those problems, arise from Christian, not universal, principles and experience. There are other religious traditions in which religion and politics are differently perceived, and in which, therefore, the problems and the possible solutions are radically different from those we know in the West. Most of these traditions, despite their often very high level of sophistication and achievement, remained or became local -- limited to one region or one culture or one people. There is one, however, that in its worldwide distribution, its continuing vitality, its universalist aspirations, can be compared to Christianity, and that is Islam."Let me know if you care to recieve the rest?
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Comment #13 posted by goneposthole on October 01, 2001 at 08:00:42 PT
After Tom Crosslin was gunned down in cold blooded murder, I became irritated that such an action would occur that I went 'postal'. However, I did not care for the original connotation, so I added 'post hole' in its stead.  Wait for my comments tomorrow so I can double my money. Thank you.Goneposthole has evolved into a hemp seeding campaign. Now, I can go out and drop hemp seeds in the post holes all over this land. In the words of an erstwhile internet site, sowmuchhemp.Have to go  
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Comment #12 posted by dddd on October 01, 2001 at 07:40:21 PT
..The best way I can answer your question,,is to say that there is a big difference between the "us",,that is you and me,,and the"us",that is our
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Comment #11 posted by FoM on October 01, 2001 at 07:35:23 PT
Hi Everyone, 
So far I haven't found any news but I'll keep looking. Has anyone wondered why we are so hated in the USA? I have thought about this a lot. When I was very young my mother told me we had to defend Israel. I asked why. She said that those who bless Isreal will be blessed and those that curse Israel will be cursed. Did anyone ever hear that too? If so is this a religious war? I always have questions. 
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Comment #10 posted by dddd on October 01, 2001 at 07:12:22 PT
I'm gonna have to directly email you about this "true capitalist" stuff!'s too loaded with controversy for another one of my wreckless fillibusters,,,besides,,Like I already said,,I'm sayin' too much here...dddd
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Comment #9 posted by tdm on October 01, 2001 at 07:01:51 PT:
You all are blaming economic abuses on capitalism, whether you used that word or not. It is not capitalism, but the socialist/communist perversion of capitalism that we practice in this country that you should be attacking. A true capitalist sacrifices nothing and asks no sacrifice in return. The true capitalist also avoids government interference at almost any cost. The corporations and businesses you are calling capitalist feed at the taxpayer-provided government money trough like the socialist pigs they are.
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Comment #8 posted by dddd on October 01, 2001 at 07:00:14 PT
It means nothing
...But I am gonna give goneposthole the $40.876.00 award for best basic comment of the day!.........congratulations goneposthole!,,,,,I hope you dont mind if I pay you after the war on terror is over. ..dont worry,,it wont be long till all those dam terrorists are gone,and we can get back to the business of pretending to be normal..........Perhaps you would care to explain the origins of the "goneposthole" name?. ......Cheers....dddd
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Comment #7 posted by goneposthole on October 01, 2001 at 05:48:11 PT
I like to smoke pot
So what if it is prohibited or not
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Comment #6 posted by dddd on October 01, 2001 at 00:21:20 PT
E_Johnson are really cool...and now that you have revealed your gender,,,I was thinkin' about asking you out for a date....but you're probably married,,and we are both kindof old,,and I'm a cheap date,,Burger King just aint that romantic,,but I think your commentaries are excellent...Dont stop......Sincerely....dddd 
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Comment #5 posted by E_Johnson on September 30, 2001 at 23:44:29 PT
It seems very symbiotic
If you think about it, the Drug War is like a symbiotic system where two organisms conspire to feed from each other and keep each other alive.Where would the DEA be without drug cartels? They cannot get away with hassling American doctors much more than they do now. So without a really big enemy to fight -- they'd be a small agency with no clout and no budgetary perks.And where would the drug cartels be without drug interdiction?The drug business would be a much riskier business with much smaller profit margins if there weren't someone out there constantly removing excess product from the market to keep the prices artifically high. Where would these people be without each other?They seem to match each others' needs very well. Even their needs for risk. Both of these businesses employ a lot of risk addicted people.
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Comment #4 posted by E_Johnson on September 30, 2001 at 23:30:47 PT
It's all milk in the river to them, isn't it?
When I was a little girl, my first lesson about capitalism was when I saw dairy farmers dumping their milk in the river. I did not understand how these guys could dump milk in the river. How could they make money if they dumped their milk in the river?Aha, they only dumped some of their milk in the river, because of the falling price of milk, and they wanted the government to act to keep the price of milk high so that they could stay in business. If the government wouldn't act, then they were going to try to raise the price by destoying their product because it didn't pay for them to sell it at the existing price.So why do we imagine that a drug cartel cries when they lose a shipment of opium?Maybe the whole Drug War is to them just like dumping milk in the river was to the dairy farmers.You cry over spilled milk. When you dump milk to raise the price, you don't cry -- you smile.The Taliban must be smiling right now. 
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Comment #3 posted by freedom fighter on September 30, 2001 at 23:03:58 PT
Gee, I thot it's already
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Comment #2 posted by dddd on September 30, 2001 at 22:56:21 PT
good point E.J.
...and as long as we're fighting terrorism,,,let's not forget to track down,and imprison,or eradicate the terror that destroys untold numbers of Americans lives,,,,,,Corporate terror!..When a corporate merger is approved,and thousands of people lose their jobs,THIS IS TERRORISM!,,,,is it not???....It is the destruction of thousands of American citizens source of livelyhood,in the interests of a network of greedy corporate terrorists,who ruin thousands of peoples lives,in the selfish pursuit of personal,and corporate gain!!... The "terrorists",that are the target of this fake war,,are far less of a threat to Joe American,than the threat from Joes' own corporate government empire..................let's put that in our pipe and smoke it....dddd
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Comment #1 posted by E_Johnson on September 30, 2001 at 22:35:06 PT
Get the UN to interdict NASDAQ!!!!!!!
I wish I could get the UN drug control people to come to America and conbat stock trading the way they combat drug trading. Maybe they could get stock prices to go up like they have gotten opium prices to go up.Why should the Taliban be the only ones to get rich from their efforts?
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