cannabisnews.com: Groups on Both Sides Oppose Marijuana Bill Groups on Both Sides Oppose Marijuana Bill Posted by CN Staff on September 27, 2003 at 08:54:43 PT By Eric Bailey, Times Staff Writer Source: Los Angeles Times Sacramento — In the seven years since California legalized marijuana as medicine, a vexing question has remained unresolved: How much pot should patients be allowed to possess?A bill that would limit the ill to six plants or a half-pound of pot is headed to the desk of Gov. Gray Davis. But the measure by state Sen. John Vasconcellos (D-Santa Clara) has run into opposition from two groups on polar sides of the state's 1996 medical marijuana initiative. The California Narcotics Officers Assn., long opposed to medicinal pot, is staunchly against the bill. On the other side, a hard-core cadre within the deeply divided medical cannabis movement contends that the six-plant restriction is far too tight.A spokesman for Davis said the governor, scrambling in the final weeks before the Oct. 7 recall election, has yet to form an opinion on the proposal."I really don't know what he will do on this one," said John Lovell, a lobbyist for the narcotics police. "But it strikes me that, with the narcotics officers and several of the marijuana advocacy groups opposing it, the bill may not have much of a political constituency."For Vasconcellos, that's a diagnosis for frustration."This saddens me enormously," the veteran senator said. "This is the most carefully negotiated bill I've worked on in my 37 years here. If this crashes, no one else will pick it up."Vasconcellos has for several sessions been treading where few Capitol lawmakers dared step: into the contentious quarrel over Proposition 215, which legalized medical cannabis.Since the law took effect, police and prosecutors have voiced frustration on issues ranging from the conflict with federal law, which declares pot illegal for any use, to the question of who is a legitimate patient.Medical pot advocates, in particular hard-core Bay Area activists who helped place Proposition 215 on the ballot, have countered that tampering with the law's open-ended limits would trample the will of the voters.For the last three sessions, Vasconcellos has introduced bills attempting to sort out the conflict. Last year, a similar bill made it to the governor's desk, but it was vetoed.This year, the senator sought to push a bill that the governor would be hard-pressed to kill, a measure that would win acceptance from all sides — police, prosecutors and patients.Instead, some of medicinal pot's most visible activists are on the warpath."John Vasconcellos has no right to barter away the rights of medical marijuana patients," said Steve Kubby, national director of the American Medical Marijuana Assn. "We won those rights through the polls. He's simply shredding them." Snipped:Complete Article: http://www.freedomtoexhale.com/oppose.htmSource: Los Angeles Times (CA)Author: Eric Bailey, Times Staff WriterPublished: September 27, 2003Copyright: 2003 Los Angeles TimesContact: letters latimes.comWebsite: http://www.latimes.com/Related Articles & Web Sites:WAMMhttp://www.wamm.org/Americans For Safe Accesshttp://www.safeaccessnow.org/Los Angeles County Research Centerhttp://www.lacbc.org/American Medical Marijuana Associationhttp://www.americanmarijuana.org/Medical Marijuana Card Bill Goes To The Governorhttp://cannabisnews.com/news/thread17354.shtmlThird Time Could Be a Charm for Pot Billhttp://cannabisnews.com/news/thread16552.shtml Home Comment Email Register Recent Comments Help Comment #27 posted by E_Johnson on September 28, 2003 at 19:14:25 PT I can understand why there is controversy To a someone who is not a Libertarian, it looks really reasonable. It looks like everything else the government produces -- a complex system of regulations and qualifications and restrictions trying to compromise between all of the various special interests represented in the system.To a Libertarian who worked on Prop. 215, it's the end of the dream to have a little bit of Libertarian philospphy being actively applied by the state government.Both points of view are valid, but Davis has to be the one to choose now. [ Post Comment ] Comment #26 posted by charmed quark on September 28, 2003 at 19:01:39 PT Wow- that sounds almost ideal I haven't seen the full act before. The clause allowing a doctor to recommend more if needed is new to me. That makes it just about perfect. It would be an excellent model for the rest of the country. Why is there any controversy about this?Thnks for all the info you have posted-Pete [ Post Comment ] Comment #25 posted by E_Johnson on September 28, 2003 at 12:32:55 PT Here is the exact section If a doctor will certify that a patient needs more than six plants, then this is allowed.11362.77 sets the following GUIDELINES:___(a) A qualified patient or primary caregiver may possess no more than eight ounces of dried marijuana per qualified patient. In addition, a qualified patient or primary caregiver may also maintain no more than six mature or 12 immature marijuana plants per qualified patient.___ (b) If a qualified patient or primary caregiver has a doctor's recommendation that this quantity does not meet the qualified patient' s medical needs, the qualified patient or primary caregiver may possess an amount of marijuana consistent with the patient's needs.___(c) Counties and cities may retain or enact medical marijuana guidelines allowing qualified patients or primary caregivers to exceed the state limits set forth in subdivision (a).___(d) Only the dried mature processed flowers of female cannabis plant or the plant conversion shall be considered when determining allowable quantities of marijuana under this section.___(e) The Attorney General may recommend modifications to the possession or cultivation limits set forth in this section. These recommendations, if any, shall be made to the Legislature no later than December 1, 2005, and may be made only after public comment and consultation with interested organizations, including, but not limited to, patients, health care professionals, researchers, law enforcement, and local governments. Any recommended modification shall be consistent with the intent of this article and shall be based on currently available scientific research. [ Post Comment ] Comment #24 posted by charmed quark on September 28, 2003 at 12:02:54 PT But 24 plants a year -is that enough I mentioned the idea of staged growth, using female clones, with one plant maturing every 2 weeks. But how much do you realize on an indoor plant? I assumed an ounce or less. And I think you really need to know what you are doing to do this. But even at an ounce, this is only an ounce every two weeks.Outdoor growing is easier. I didn't know about the 12 immature plant limit. You might achieve 6 mature female plants this way. But then you hit the 1/2 lb limit ( I know this is really a floor, but it will be treated as a limit in many counties).So those who claim they need multiple ounces per week will not be happy. Two ounces a week is over 100 ounces a year. With 1/2 lb from a summer crop plus an ounce every 2 weeks during the rest of the year, that would be about 26 ounces per year, way below the stated need.Don't get we wrong - I would vote for this act. I think it is a great improvement. I was just pointing out why some people are complaining.I actually have a hard time believing a need of 2 or more ounces a week, assuming medical grade cannabis. When I was using such stuff, I was getting maybe 5-10 very, very strong doses per gram. So even if you need 6 doses a day (say every 4 hours round the clock), that would be only a gram a day, or 7 grams a week or an ounce every 4 weeks. But I don't know enough about medical needs to really talk about this. And I imagine people vary in their reaction to cannabis, not to mention that different conditions need different amounts. In a ideal world, the doctor recommening the cannabis might recommend a minimum for that person's condition and history.But given the politicalization of this issue (by the feds and some parts of the state), this is a huge step forward. People who need more than the floor ( who live in counties that restrict it to the floor) will just have to continue buying more to make up the difference.-Pete [ Post Comment ] Comment #23 posted by E_Johnson on September 28, 2003 at 09:27:18 PT And another thing charmed It's not six plants per year. It's six mature plants per growing cycle.If you grow indoors with six week strains, this means you can harvest 24 females per year. [ Post Comment ] Comment #22 posted by E_Johnson on September 28, 2003 at 09:22:00 PT charmed it's six MATURE plants!!! Patients are allowed 12 immature plants or six mature ones.This bill was crafted with the help of people who know how to grow.Believe me. [ Post Comment ] Comment #21 posted by E_Johnson on September 28, 2003 at 09:20:17 PT charmed -- read the bill Yes there is a problem with a six plant limit. I know from experience it's not enough for me, for example, because I tend to grow small strains.HOWEVER this is meant to act as a floor, not a ceiling.IT's all in the bill. Read the bill to see what is in the bill.In Sonoma patients are allowed 99 plants and that would not change under this bill.In LA we don't know how many plants we're allowed because our local DA keeps that a big big secret.Our local DA in LA claims that no medical users are being prosecuted from growing but he won't commit to a plant limit at all. The rumor is that it's 25, but someone else says it is 7.So who knows.Also, there is a provision in the bill to allow for constitutional challenges to the whole idea of plant limits, which are not mentioned in 215. [ Post Comment ] Comment #20 posted by FoM on September 28, 2003 at 09:16:59 PT charmed quark I see what you mean. Why must everything be so darn complicated when it comes to Cannabis? I think very simply about things and when they get complex I get confused and wind up just shaking my head and saying to myself I just don't get it. [ Post Comment ] Comment #19 posted by charmed quark on September 28, 2003 at 08:05:12 PT FOM - six plant limit problem FOM - the problem with this is that there is also a 1/2 lb limit. So imagine during the summer you grow the max allowed, 1/2 lb. That isn't going to last many medical users the rest of the year.And when you grow plants from seed, half will be female on average an some plants won't survive. So you might only have two surviving mature female plants. Outdoors, one plant might give you 1/4 lb of buds ( I think, I have no experience), so you might on average end up with 1/2 lb from 6 plants but you might end up with more or a lot less. And this is your year's supply. Somebody who needs 2 ounces a week or more will neeed to grow 6 pounds, maybe more. Not many patients need this much, but some do. That's the problem with the fixed limit.You could clone plants off the females and keep a staged growth of 6 female plants so that one becomes mature every 2 or 3 weeks, replacing the mature plant with a new clone so there are always 6. But this won't work outdoors as maturation is sunlight controlled. So it has to be done indoors under lights at greater expense. And indoors,you'd probably realize only an ounce off each plant if you know what you are doing( I think, from reading about it). So you'd get an ounce every 2 or 3 weeks, again not enough even if you started with the 1/2 lb.The 6 plant/1/2 lb limit will work for most patients, but certainly not all.-Pete [ Post Comment ] Comment #18 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 20:02:09 PT Paul McCartney in Red Square on cable On A&E today they showed a documentary about Paul McCarnet's concert in red Square.The Beatles' music was smuggled into the USSR in the sixties. In the documentary, they showed old Soviet propaganda films showing Beatles smugglers being caught by the police.The current Russian Defense Minister recalled with fondness how the greatest achievement in his cultural life as a youth was to buy all of the complete set of Beatles albums on the black market.The Russians credited the Beatles with saving their culture, showing them a whole new way tot hink of the world other than the corrupt old 19th century Marxist way they were forced into by the government.Other people said they learned English from the lyrics.Gorbachev had a photo op with Paul and he grabbed his hand and was holding onto it and going on and on about what Beatles music meant to Russia.Gorbachev must have broken the law too then if he listened to the Beatles before Glasnost.Every five minutes there was a scene or an interview that literally made me cry. I love Moscow and I have spent a lot of time in the Red Square area. [ Post Comment ] Comment #17 posted by FoM on September 27, 2003 at 19:50:36 PT EJ The Movies On! We were going thru the channels and found How High The Movie. We're watching it now. It must be a free weekend because we don't get this channel any other time.http://www.howhighmovie.com/ [ Post Comment ] Comment #16 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 14:04:15 PT I just don't know The bill is about more than plant limits. As I said, there are many provisions that would benefit everyone.It has a section that states that while jails are not required to provide inmates a chance to use pot, jails will be ALLOWED to allow inmates who are medical users to use pot if they choose to.Also, it will be illegal to prevent someone in jail from seeking a medical marijuana ID card while in custody.For people with the ID card, it wil be against the law for the police to ignore the card.It will be an actual crime for the police to arrest a medical user with an ID card. [ Post Comment ] Comment #15 posted by FoM on September 27, 2003 at 13:54:04 PT EJ How About This Maybe patients wasn't right for me to ask but how about volume of people? What are the biggest cities and how many would benefit as a whole if the Bill goes thru? Is that easier to figure maybe? [ Post Comment ] Comment #14 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 13:52:59 PT I would guess Maybe about 50% of the patients in the state are living somewhere with liberal policies? Just my guess. LA has an unofficial semi-liberal policy but it is not admitted to in public by any prosecutor. So I can't tell you what it is, exactly. [ Post Comment ] Comment #13 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 13:49:43 PT It's a regional divide The most liberal county plant limits are in the hippie counties or the left wing counties of the state, mostly in the north.In the south of the state, or in the really rural counties dominated by Bible belters (what we call Calabama) the plant limits are very small to nonexistent. In many of these counties, the vote against 215 was very high.I don't know how to count patients in either case. [ Post Comment ] Comment #12 posted by FoM on September 27, 2003 at 13:35:19 PT Question How many medical patients in California can grow without a problem based on what their area has decided? How many Californians would benefit from this Bill going thru verus those who wouldn't benefit? [ Post Comment ] Comment #11 posted by Treeanna on September 27, 2003 at 13:08:29 PT The LA times screwed this up bad. This is a great bill, and the Times is reporting the facts incorrectly.NORML has a link to it, so I went and read it for myself.Nobody who is an advocate of medical mj would be against this.I suggest any who care write the governor and tell him to sign it. [ Post Comment ] Comment #10 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 12:16:37 PT An advantage to the ID card Suppose I have my voluntary California medical marijuana ID card with its 24 hour toll free verification number and I am travelling in another state and I get caught with my medicine.If the police officer has any empathy at all towards medical marijuana, the ID card would give him an opportunity to practice selective enforcement, use his own judgment and pretend he never saw the pot.Or he could arrest me, and the news media would have to write that a MEDICAL USER FROM CALIFORNIA WITH A VALID GOVERNMMENT ID was arrested.Which is a good thing too.I know people don't like the idea of ID cards but there's a positive side to everything. [ Post Comment ] Comment #9 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 12:05:10 PT I'll try to be less emotional Here's the link to the ASA report on SB420.http://safeaccessnow.org/article.php?id=721There are parts people are going to feel comforted by and parts people are going to feel threatened by.I keep thinking about that dog who was shot, and it makes me emotional.In my opinion if Davis signs this bill then medical marijuana becomes even further embedded into the political and bureaucratic mainstream.I think that the benefits of this aspect of the bill cannot be overstated.I think embedding medical marijuana more into the mainstream -- even if it means compromising on the details -- will bring relief to more patients, because it will become more socially acceptable and less dangerous for people in the mainstream to try marijuana.Then marijuana will become less of a mystery to the mainstream and the experience of adult medical marijuana use will start to dominate over the dramatic mythology of teen recreational marijuana use. [ Post Comment ] Comment #8 posted by FoM on September 27, 2003 at 11:42:05 PT Caregivers Can someone who is too sick to grow their own have a caregiver? [ Post Comment ] Comment #7 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 11:39:59 PT It's a great bill It has all kinds of nice details.For one thing, the geniuses that wrote 215 forgot entirely about TRANSPORATION.SB420 adds driving pot from one county to another to the list of things we can do with our pot.We can grow our pot together, we can charge each other for growing it. [ Post Comment ] Comment #6 posted by FoM on September 27, 2003 at 11:39:50 PT EJ, OK I see now and thank you! [ Post Comment ] Comment #5 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 11:37:11 PT It's a floor not a ceiling Six plants is a minimum.Counties that only allow three plants would be forced to allow at least six.Counties that allow 99 plants would not be forced to limit to six.Right now LA does not allow any, so six is progress. [ Post Comment ] Comment #4 posted by FoM on September 27, 2003 at 11:29:57 PT EJ Help Me Out I have done my best to stay out of this issue with this Bill. I didn't get e-mail news until recently so I only heard bits and pieces of this argument. How much can be produced with 6 plants if grown in the best of circumstances and outside? [ Post Comment ] Comment #3 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 11:27:56 PT You never asked my opinion The patients really get screwed when the ideologs in the in crowd get to work.So much for democracy.I must have missed the voting when "we" all decided how "we" felt about this.So much for democracy. [ Post Comment ] Comment #2 posted by E_Johnson on September 27, 2003 at 11:21:00 PT Srew you, Steve Kubby You're up there in Canada safe, your dog isn't going to get shot.I'm out of this movement if this bill fails.That's it. I don't want to deal any more.Let the Libertarians have their purity. They can be as pure as they want.By themselves alone without me. [ Post Comment ] Comment #1 posted by Arthur on September 27, 2003 at 09:38:46 PT: WE ALL HAVE OVER LOOKED The attorneys should wake up!! the highest law maker in the country have made LAW in ten states. WHO makes the laws ?? Supreme Court APPEALS COURT JUDGES!! they do the constitution and other laws the court of APEALS HAVE SET PRISIDENT ON CANNABIS AND MEDICAL MARJIEANA. THEY are over the rest of the GOVERNMENT and the SENATE and the HOUSE OF REPRESNTIUES and D.E.A.th Any Arrest by federal or state officers in the said states has been deemed unconstitutional. Not Ashcroft not Pee W. or any the rest of them that think they know it all. Attorneys have to give the JUEY a lesson in CONSTITUTIONAL LAW then go for it..The JURY have to give itup. [ Post Comment ] Post Comment