Makers of Hemp Products to Fight DEA 

Makers of Hemp Products to Fight DEA 
Posted by FoM on October 02, 2001 at 13:52:16 PT
By Christie Wilson, Neighbor Island Editor
Source: Honolulu Advertiser
Federal drug enforcement officials are proposing new regulations that would outlaw food and body-care products that contain hemp. Hemp products are sold in Hawai'i through major retail chains such as The Body Shop, which offers hemp-based soaps and lotions, and smaller stores like Hemp House in Pa'ia, Maui.Hemp House owner Kathy Barr said she uses hemp oil in her lotions because it is a long-lasting moisturizer that is easily absorbed into the skin. "It's our best-selling product and to have that cut out would have a big impact on us," she said.
The rules proposed by the Drug Enforcement Administration would allow "the continuation of what have historically been considered legitimate industry uses of hemp such as paper, rope and clothing." However, the line is drawn at products that would introduce even trace amounts of THC into the human body.THC, or tetrahydrocannabinol, is the compound that gives marijuana its euphoric effect.David West, a seed geneticist who oversees Hawai'i's hemp research project, said policymakers fail to recognize the botanical distinctions between industrial hemp and its more potent cannabis cousin, marijuana.The THC levels in hemp are so low that you can't get high from smoking it. In fact, West said, hemp contains a high level of an "antipsychoactive" compound that blocks the marijuana high.There are fears the DEA rules would damage a fledgling U.S. industry that is trying to revive itself after being virtually wiped out in the last century by anti-drug policies. Vote Hemp Inc., a nonprofit group that advocates deregulation of industrial hemp, said sales of hemp-based food and body-care products hit $25 million last year, up from $2 million in 1997.Opposing Force The 300-member Hemp Industries Association, formed in 1994, will organize opposition to the proposed regulations during its convention Thursday through Sunday in Kihei.Barr, one of nine HIA members in Hawai'i, has a manufacturing operation in Florida that makes hemp-based shampoo, conditioner, body lotions, bath gel and sunscreen under the Hemp House Pa'ia label. She sells her products at her shop and online, and wholesales to Mainland stores."It's ridiculous. The amount of THC is not going to make any difference in drug tests or how you feel," she said.Mike Smith of Eclectacare Botanics on the Big Island is the Hawai'i wholesaler for Hemp-n-Heat, an analgesic gel made in Colorado. He said businesses that deal in hemp products are at the mercy of government rules."We do what we can with political-type means," said Smith of opposition to hemp restrictions. "Our company fully believes in the possibility of hemp and hemp products."Several Concerns Big Island hemp advocate Roger Christie said uncertainty over government acceptance of hemp products makes it difficult for businesses to find investors and to develop markets.The DEA gave notice in the May 14 Federal Register that it intends to publish the rules regarding hemp, saying they are necessary "in order to protect public health and safety." The rules would clarify that THC is listed as a controlled substance, even if it originates from hemp.A DEA spokeswoman in Washington, D.C., said the agency does not comment on proposed rules before they are formally published in the Federal Register. However, the May 14 notice said officials had received numerous inquiries from members of the public about the legal status of products made from hemp. There also are concerns that use of some hemp products could result in positive drug tests.The HIA and other hemp advocates argue that natural trace amounts of THC pose no health risk; that the DEA does not have the legal authority to issue such rules; and that the rules are outside the scope of the Controlled Substances Act.Vote Hemp President Eric Steenstra said the organization will consider a court challenge if the DEA rules go into effect."Even though DEA has proposed these changes, they are not required to follow through and we hope common sense will prevail once they have evaluated our objections," he said.To address concerns about certain hemp products affecting the results of workplace drug tests, the TestPledge program was developed to assure consumers they would not receive a confirmed positive test for marijuana from normal consumption of hemp foods or use of body-care products.Participating manufacturers agree to keep THC levels in shelled hemp seed and oil levels below what might trigger a positive drug test, even when these products are consumed in high amounts on a daily basis.During the Maui convention, West and state Rep. Cynthia Thielen, R-49th (Kailua), will speak at a public event Friday night.Hawai'i is one of 12 states that have passed legislation supporting research or deregulation of industrial hemp, said HIA spokeswoman Mari Kane. Of those states, only Hawai'i and North Dakota have planted test plots, she said.In 1999, Thielen co-authored the state law that created the Hawai'i Industrial Hemp Research Project on a quarter-acre plot at Whitmore Village on O'ahu. West runs the project.Hemp Can Be Economic Boon The DEA set strict guidelines for the Hawai'i research project in exchange for approving the required permits. The requirements included a 10-foot-high chain-link fence topped with barbed wire and an infrared security system.With myriad uses such as fabric, fiberboard, paper, rope and fuel, Thielen and others say they believe hemp can be a means of economic development in the Islands, especially since the demise of sugar throughout most of the state.West said last week that he is continuing his work to collect and breed different varieties of hemp from around the world to develop genetic material for what hemp advocates hope will become a successful agribusiness in the United States.The project's initial sponsor, Alterna Hair Care, a Los Angeles-based company that uses hemp in its hair shampoos and conditioners, is no longer involved. West declined to reveal the source of financial support, emphasizing the project receives no government financing.A $5 donation is requested for those attending Friday's public event, which starts at 7 p.m. in the Auntie Aloha Longhouse at the Maui Lu Resort, 575 S. Kihei Road.Source: Honolulu Advertiser (HI)Author: Christie Wilson, Neighbor Island EditorPublished: Tuesday, October 2, 2001 Copyright: 2001 The Honolulu Advertiser, a division of Gannett Co. Inc.Contact: letters honoluluadvertiser.comWebsite: Articles & Web Site:FTE Hemp Links Plan Could Hamper Hemp Retailer News Hemp Archives 
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Comment #27 posted by kaptinemo on October 04, 2001 at 10:03:38 PT:
4D, I couldn't agree more
Having become an avid reader of Noam Chomsky, I came to the same conclusion you reached. Unfortunately, I don't have the Good Perfesser's Secrets, Lies, and Democracy handy, so i can't quite you word for word what he's said about the stste of 'democracy' in the US. But the gist of it was this: go away little children and play with your toys, while the big corporation/government people decide your fates. Oh, yes, you can vote - and it will have as much effect upon our deliberations and actions as your dog does in voting with the cat as to when you'll feed them. The latest bit of the Fed attack (lets call it what it is) on MMJ patients via the assault upon the California Medical Research Center and the Federal theft of its' patient's records is proof beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Feds are through arguing about such 'obsolete' (for them) concepts such as "State's Rights" as opposed to Federal mandates. Unless some massive sea change overtakes the people of California and they rise en masse to protect their fellow citizens from Federal harrassment, the die will be cast. And given the country's faux-patriotic mood in the aftermath of the tragedy, to speak out now against these actions of 'our heroes' would invite dreision. As in "Pot? You wanta talk about the rights of some dumb potheads? We got a war goin' on heah! Bad mouthin' our 'heroes'. You gotta lotta nerve, buddy!"Unless a powerful legal challenge to Federal 'authority' is made in the next few weeks, we will see more of this kind of behavior. If we do not see any improvement in the situation, then you can forget trying to reason with them; all we can expect from them now are snarling faces hidden behind black balaclavas, jackboots, Fritz helmets, body armor, and machine-pistols.
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Comment #26 posted by dddd on October 04, 2001 at 07:37:52 PT
Sad,,,But True ,,,Kap
.......      "Does that make us all terrorists? "......................I've often wondered how we should really divide up the blame for what our situation is now...........The most disgustingly disturbing argument that we hear time and again is;"Well..... get out and vote,and then you can change things!".(my Dad loves to say this).......unfortunatly,,, that's kinda like saying;;"Get out and play the lottery if you ever wanna win",,I know that seems like a questionable,and farfetched comparison,,,,,but it addresses the question of responsibility for what has happenned within our,(their?) country......If we view the US from abroad,aren't we all supposed to be in control,of who is in control???...Think about the huge amounts of people who kinda think that the United States,is actually united!!,,,united in one Cowboy Shrub Asshole Wildcat World Policeman Bogart Unstoppable Monster Beast..............I'm sorry,but I want nothing to do with the dubya u.s.a.,,,,he gives me the creeps.........................dddd
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Comment #25 posted by kaptinemo on October 04, 2001 at 06:51:12 PT:
S'alright, 4D
I suffer from an occasionally reckless muse, myself. I had meant to say that the surviving family members of those who died in the attacks would have some serious questions...if it were ever explained to them the mechanics of the black drug market.Indeed, all Americans should question as to what our foreign policies (whereby known criminals are recruited as cat's-paws despite their demonstrated predilections of turning on their supposed masters) are creating. True, bin Laden (and I re-iterate here at the risk of seeming pedantic, we don't know for sure if he was the mastermind behind all this) was quite wealthy to begin with. The illicit drug trade his Afghani brethren are involved in is nothing new, and made up only a relatively small amount of their revenues. It cannot possibly have payed for all the operatin. Bin Laden was wealthy partly because of the billions of dollars flowing from our wallets each time we gas up our cars.By the embarrassingly, shockingly simple-minded logic of the DrugWarriors, every person who smokes a joint is a terr collaborator. Yet, the entire Developed World has been indirectly supporting this creep longer than the USG was directly doing so. Every time we gas up, we put money in the hands of people who really don't like us...and some of that money goes into the hands of those who are more than happy to turn that visceral dislike into bloody action. Does that make us all terrorists? 
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Comment #24 posted by dddd on October 04, 2001 at 06:20:35 PT
sorry about that
qqqq is kindof bad,and wreckless...please accept my sincere apologies for the crude language in the previous post,,,blatant use of the "f" word,,goes beyond the boundaries of good clean fun,,and I dont want to set a bad example,or get kicked out of commenting,by failure to refrain from profanity....dddd
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Comment #23 posted by qqqq on October 04, 2001 at 06:09:07 PT
and while we're on the topic of sheep...
..and federal tits.....I think "Sam the Sham,and the Pharohs",,would make a wonderful name for a new federal rock group!  George,"The Shrub" Bush,:lead vocals......Dick,"Heart-throb",Cheney,on rhythm guitar....John,"Asshole",Ashcroft on bass,,,Asa,"Hutch",Hutchinson on drums,,,,,,,and their new hit on the Clear Channel,,"Inna-Fuckin-God-duh-duh-vida"
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Comment #22 posted by dddd on October 04, 2001 at 05:43:58 PT
No Kap,,,You are the one to be thanked
....First of all,,for turning me on to the circus,that is going on at that site,and secondly,the wonderful,and colorful phrase" The chance to suck two rich teats on the Federal sow".!,,,,,and they are no longer hassling with the inefficiencies of manual,personal sucking......They have rigged these tandem tits up to an industrial grade milking machine,,and they have already hooked the "Milkmaster 2001",up to alot of other cash cows,and the suckfest shows no signs of slowing down!.....if an udder goes dry,,they will just hook up to another one that they can easily create ,,in the barnyard that is in confused disarray.......They have created a herd of bleating,dedicated sheeple,that will follow in any way the media shepards them towardddd
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Comment #21 posted by kaptinemo on October 04, 2001 at 05:17:20 PT:
Thank you, 4D
Just as the DEA has a subscription to High Times, I feel it is incumbent upon us to know what the opposition is thinking. And if they are kind enough to telegraph their true feelings - and provide us with useful information - so much the better. It did not take Stephen Hawking or Albert Einstein to see that the DrugWarriors would jump on the anti-terrorism bandwagon as they did. Grasping, shallow, opportunistic slugs that they are, it was inevitable. The chance to suck two rich teats on the Federal sow at the same time must have had them besides themselves, shaking in anticipation. As one of the posters to DEAWatch - only one day after the tragedy - connivingly put it, there was 'gold in them thar hills!' by making the (pained and forced) connection between terrorism and illicit drug sales.Consciously ignoring the very simple fact that the entire black market has been created by the laws, themselves. And that (just as every nark will now accuse illicit drug users of being enemy collaborators) the narks themselves contribute to the artificially high cost of the goods they seek to destroy. Thus making them so very profitable...and a tempting source of revenue for some terrorists.But we can't stand up in Congress and testify to that, now can we, Asa-me-lad? Because then every person who died by the hands of these supposedly opium-funded terrs would have questions to ask their 'leaders'. Questions like: Why are we, with these laws, essentially funding these scum?We all know this to be true; and so do the narks. But so long as this headlong rush to tyranny remains profitable - and now, it certainly will, as we will have yet another "war without end, Amen" - we can expect no change. Certainly not from their camp.One last thing: Canada is worried about a 'brain drain' of their best talent moving South: this s**t keeps up, those worries might be dispelled within a couple years - as the talented folk (many of whom are cannabists) that I know in the IT and other fields may seek less oppressive climes. 
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Comment #20 posted by dddd on October 03, 2001 at 21:00:40 PT
And Thank You Dr. Nemo
...For the astonishing,and chilling items.I'll bet you that website will be radically altered in the near future........dddd
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Comment #19 posted by dddd on October 03, 2001 at 20:57:50 PT
Thank You Doug
...I should have known there was already a "terrorist test" thing in exsistance.....I doubt I would pass such a test,,,,but unlike the fanatic military,and law enforcement people who would be "re-tested",,I would not be eligible....>"Some people, even good guys like Navy Seals or FBI agents, might test positive, but adding additional questions would clear them."What about the "good guys",who are true American patriots,,who were pissed off by the tests themselves,and the regime that required them to take the test?...It's kinda like a hi-tech witch test..... If 4ds old American Patriot Hippie ass fails the test,,,then the fire will be kindled beneath the stake that the quadra-d has been tied to,,,and of course,the media will paint 4d,as a wayward radical,who failed the test,and therefore had the potential to commit bin Ladenesque acts of terror,on American children,and their parents.........yes,,,that was perhaps a quite abstract scenario,,,,but I think these are the beginnings of some strange times to come...We have already endured the Constitutional outer limits with the war on drugs....Prepare yourselves for the twilight zone,as the War on Terror makes the drug war seem wimpy,and somewhat harmless compared to THE WAR ON TERROR!......we will long for the good old days,when all we had was the War on Drugs.............dddd
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Comment #18 posted by mayan on October 03, 2001 at 16:30:51 PT
Duke of Oil
Back to the article, The war on drugs is mainly a war on marijuana. Marijuana is illegal as an excuse to keep industrial hemp illegal.With the "Duke of Oil" appointed President, he is fighting industrial hemp tooth & nail. He knows that hemp can do anything that his petrochemicals can do & hemp can do it better,cheaper & cleaner!This is all about greed & power. Sustainable vs. non-sustainable. I know which side I'm on!
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Comment #17 posted by bruce42 on October 03, 2001 at 13:04:29 PT
Right now...
I want to walk up to this Kirsch fellow and poke him in the eye with a stick. This kind of technophile safety drivle is really enraging."IF WE WANT to test this, I have an idea, already shared with Steve. Let's not test it on U.S. citizens, but on people who want to travel to the U.S. Make brain fingerprinting (yes, it is a really bad name) a part of the visa application process. Require resident aliens to come in for testing, if you like. Since these people are asking to be our guests, this doesn't seem like too much to ask, does it?"What is this shite!?!?!?!? I can see it all now...Customs Official - "Welcome to America sir, land of the free. A place where you and your family can enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A place where you can enjoy the benefits of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. Now just step this way so Officer Porkrind of the Thought police can scan your brain to make sure you conform completely with our rigorous mental standards. Then you have to submit to a urine test, a full body cavity search, then we get you addicted to nicotine and alcohol, give the keys to the 2002 Ford Gas-a-holic SUV, and convert you to Christianity. Unfortunately, the bleaching machine is in for repairs, so you'll have to come back in week so we can get rid of that nasty brown skin tone. But, we'll make you a God-fearing American! Just you wait and see! Oh, and by the way, if any of the tests come back negative we're going to have to lock you away in prison for at least 20 years, but probably longer. Meanwhile, your wife will be forced to get three jobs so she can support your kids. Then we are going to take your kids away and feed them lots of government ok'd drugs and give them to some Foster abusers. Meanwhile, your wife will pick up a fourth job so she can pay for child support and her new coke habit."Immigrant - "Uh, I just wanted my kids to be able go to school, and I wanted to be able to practice my religion without punishment of death."Customs Offcial - "Hmmmm, now that you mention it, you DO look like one of those Afghani dudes everyone is so fired up about. I bet you're even one of those terr-or-ists, aren't ya? How's about we just shoot you here and save ourselves some trouble."Immigrant - "But, I, uh, wait!!!"Customs Official - "Have a nice day sir. Next!" 
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Comment #16 posted by Patrick on October 03, 2001 at 10:22:42 PT
Brain Scan/Fingerprinting?????????????Sheesh what is this worl coming too?Piss in a cup, lie detector tests, brain scans, this is becoming a nightmare ala A Clockwork Orange. And we know how that movie ended. If I have to submit to a brain scan in my future I am moving to the mountains as far away from "civilization" a possible. Hunt and fish and pick berries oh and grow my own marijuana too. Screw the news, the phone, the computer, jobs, money, pleasure, art, just screw it all. Life is worthless if I/we have to submit to the Thought Police in a "War on what you Think." That will be the last straw for me. God save us all. Or should I say God have mercy on us all.Thanks for the link Doug.
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Comment #15 posted by tdm on October 03, 2001 at 10:04:06 PT:
re: terror test
Thanks for the article Doug. I read the paper of the guy proposing this insanity. Steve Kirsch has clearly lost his mind. Perhaps it's from testing himself using his brain probe. His assertion that there are no Big Brother worries because the system is voluntary is laughable at best. I'm not sure which government he's been living under, but it clearly exists only as a fantasy in his brain. So many examples of potential abuse spring to mind that it would take me all day to write them down. No use arguing with or debating a madman.
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Comment #14 posted by Doug on October 03, 2001 at 09:27:38 PT
The Terror Test
4d points in comment #6 the terror test as coming next. Well, someone has beaten you to the punch. The link below points to an article published yesterday about "brain fingerprints". The article gives all the details how a simple test every few years can detect "terrorists". There is also a link (on that page) to a website that gives further details. Also of interests are the comments at the bottom of the page, presumably from computer professionals, that are scary in their lack of worry.,10738,2815694,00.html
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Comment #13 posted by puff_tuff on October 03, 2001 at 07:39:01 PT
 Dubya and dad
I am passing this along from the Blue Ear ForumAround the Ole Camp Fire
(c) CW, 2001"Pass me another beer, son.""Is that wise, dad?""Hell, boy, the 'ol nodding donkey got a few barrels to go yet.
Talkin' of which, I guess you can see which way the wind blows. That
Colin Powell, he's got what it takes, swears by the Good Book, can't
use their book, it's bad. Anti-American. No, we gotta go over there
and show them ragheads that our God knows how to make you an offer
you can't refuse. Yes, sir. . . .  . . . . ya do got that, don't
you, boy?""Yes dad. Mangrove knows all about that kind of stuff. Price of a
gallon, that's what democracy runs on.""That's right. Good old oil. Everyone's friend. You know, when you
was little, we'd run outta cooking oil, so I'd just get some fresh,
straight outta the ground."The sound of crickets floats on the warm evening breeze. A trail of
smoke rises from the campfire, glowing blue due to the five hundred
watt portable lighting set, Rayleigh scattering, and the sizzle of a
large Texas desert turtle basting slowly in its own juices, turned
slowly by a secret agent pretending to be a Mexican cook."So dad, how long can we make this terror war last, d'you think?""Indef-i-nitely, I hope. We got to play the cards real close. We
need all that oil, son, and remember: we lost the Shah already, and
look what we got instead.""It's real expensive keeping all those planes going round and round,
dad. And don't forget about the tax cut I promised everyone. There's
people on the phone all the time askin' when they'll git their
money.""Look at it this way. We're real lucky all the oil is in one place.
The fundamentalists can have Riyad and Jeddah, so long as we get to
keep the coastal oil fields. And meanwhile, the drillin' on the
Alaska so-called reserve has turned up some real gushers, what I
hear. Oil all over the place."Dad leans forward and spits into the fire. A green flame rises,
briefly taking on the image of a horned demon, then dissipates. The
turtle's head emerges from it's shell, mouth open in a soundless
scream."So, just give the good ol' boys a nuther year, and we'll be able to
replace most of what the ra - what we get from the Gulf right now.
And you can lean on Mexico, get them to increase production, drop
prices. Send a few advisers down to help them . . . "Dad laughs. A cold wind rustles the trees, come from some distant
prarie where bones lie bleaching in moonlight."We got the canal secured?""Which one? Panama?""Well, boy, I kind of assume that you got the Panama Canal secured,
no, what I meant was the Suez. Maybe you can get the Brits to help
with that. They got a thing about the place.""There's a lot of Chinese army moving up to Afghanistan, dad. Mr.
Powell says it reminds him of Korea.""They won't try anything. They like crows, waiting for scraps. And
talkin of scraps, don't go signin' any en-viro-treaties, either. We
got plenty of coal here for when the oil runs out, be a pity to
waste it, now.""So we just hold on, dad, is that it?""That's it, son. The one that holds on longest is the one that wins
in the end. And we do want to win, don't we?"
Blue Ear Forum
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Comment #12 posted by Silent_Observer on October 03, 2001 at 06:46:25 PT
tdm...thank you...
Without bragging on myself too much, let me say this...I am SO GLAD I voted for this guy!He can speak for me any time!
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Comment #11 posted by tdm on October 03, 2001 at 05:53:34 PT:
Harry Browne
The overlooked flaw in retaliation
Harry Browne
Monday, September 17, 2001
I now have received over a thousand emails in response to my articles on the terrorist attacks. I regret that I can't reply individually to them. Nor is it possible even to reply in print to many of the thoughtful suggestions, complaints, or proposals that readers have offered.
But there is one common theme I can deal with here — one that runs through all the proposals for retaliation — the assumption that the retaliation can be done in a way that achieves many good purposes with no bad consequences.
It can be summarized in the statement, "I believe we can retaliate with few innocent people killed, and Afghanistan may be a better place when we leave."
But something very important is overlooked in almost every proposal I've received:
When you believe the U.S. government can eradicate the terrorist threat, you're assuming it will design, create, and carry out the plan the way you imagine it.
When you endorse the idea that our government should invade Afghanistan, or occupy the Middle East, or conduct "surgical strikes" against terrorist sanctuaries, or round up a particular class of people within the U.S., you automatically assume it will be done as you imagine — with no bad side effects.
(This is a problem common to all government programs. You see suffering or danger, and in your imagination you see a government program eliminating it. But in the real world the program could operate as you expect only if you were a dictator — having at your disposal all of government's power to compel everyone involved to do things your way.)
Never Happen
But in fact it won't be done your way. This isn't Burger King.
The program you support will be carried out by the same kind of people who bombed a pharmaceutical factory in the Sudan, who fired cruise missiles into the terrorist camp that wasn't there in Afghanistan, who saw American troops humiliated in Lebanon and Somalia, who went to war with Iraq to keep oil plentiful but then forcibly prohibited the buying of most Iraqi oil afterward, who were going to stop Panama from being a drug conduit and instead left Panama completely defenseless against the drug trade.
That doesn't mean the same kind of failures will happen again, but it does mean almost certainly that what you propose is not what you'll get.
What's overlooked in the support for unleashing the military, the FBI, the CIA, and other crime-fighting or war-making agencies is simply this:
The government that's supposed to win the War on Terrorism is the same one that's been waging the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, the War on Crime, and the War on Illiteracy. Perhaps we should pay more attention to its track record.
President Bush said, "We will rid the world of the evil-doers." Perhaps he could start with Washington, D.C. — and if he gets rid of the evil-doers there, he could move on to some other part of America — and if he succeeds there, he could extend the program to the rest of America — and if he succeeds there, he could ask the Canadians if they want our help — and if he succeeds there, he could go on to the Mexicans, the Haitians, the rest of Latin America, and then the Europeans, and so on.
But start with the whole world? Doesn't that seem a little pretentious for a government with such a sorry record of failures?
If that sounds flippant, I'm sorry, but I get pretty tired of hearing all these promises made to justify taking more of my life away from me — when none of the thousands of promises made already has come even close to being fulfilled.
Why Government Fails
Why does government fail to keep its promises?
Whenever you ask the government to do anything, you transform what had been a financial, scientific, military, moral, or social matter into a political issue.
The program you propose will turn into one more Christmas tree on which every politician can hang his favorite pork-barrel boondoggle — and can use to sneak through his favorite scheme for controlling your life and money.
Government programs too often wind up doing the opposite of what their original supporters had expected. Look how programs to end racial discrimination have produced racial quotas, how federal programs to improve education have turned schools into laboratories for crackpot social theories, how "welfare reform" has greatly increased the cost of welfare, how "good works" to foreign countries have produced such ill will.
Political programs produce such strange results because the "public servants" who design and execute the programs have a wholly different agenda from the public who support them.
You Aren't a Dictator
You don't control the government. And your dreams of what government can achieve are just that — dreams. They bear no resemblance to what government will really do if your program is enacted.
If government is going to do someone's bidding, is it likely to be your bidding — or that of people far more determined, far wealthier, and far more influential than you are — people who see the operation as a chance to further their own self-interest?
That's why libertarians are so all-fired determined to reduce government to as small an entity as we can — where it can do as little damage as possible and be used as little as possible for someone's gain at someone else's expense.
That's why it makes no sense to entrust government with the job of bringing peace to the world. It can no more do that than Caesar could. And it can no more rid the world of evil-doers or make it "safe for democracy" than it can stamp out drugs or poverty.
So long as government is supposed to be the instrument of our protection, we can ask it to seek out, capture, try, and punish the specific people involved in the specific attacks — and hope that it doesn't kill too many innocent bystanders in the process. But think twice — no, think a hundred times — before sending it on a mission to cleanse the world of evil.
For our long-term safety, we must quit entrusting our government with world police powers.
When will we learn that government is not our salvation?
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Comment #10 posted by tdm on October 03, 2001 at 05:51:36 PT:
taking "sides"
I agree with much of what's being said here. As some of you know, I am not in favor of a pacifist approach to our situation. However, I understand the inherent dangers to us as well given the direction we seem to be heading. A "war on terrorism" in the eyes of the Shrub apparently means a protracted police action against individuals the world over, including in our own hometowns. It is disappointingly reminiscent of the drug war and will likely have the same consequences.On the other side of this valueless coin is the prospect of lobbing a few missiles here and there, seemingly at random, with the same pretense of doing something that congress uses to pass laws that violate the 2nd amendment. Anyone remember Clinton? His efforts, and those of his wimpy Gulf War predecessor, bear much of the blame in recent history for what happened on 9/11.A war on terrorism is not the answer. And "changing our foreign policy" at this point is also pissing in the wind. Only a war against nations that sponsor terrorists (the kind that fly passenger jets into giant office buildings) can hope to destroy the infrastructure and support that make those madmen possible. Many here have read my position as one of full support of the administration in whatever action they take. Nothing could be further from the truth. Because I don't trust our leaders to do what I think needs to be done, I, like everyone else here, continue to expatiate about what I think is the solution. I believe the likelihood of seeing my plan implemented is as miniscule as GW approaching the situation with pacifism.Saying that my supporting the use of violence in defense against the initiation of force we experienced on 9/11 makes me a government supporter has a familiar ring to it. "The drug is associated with a hated subgroup of the society or a foreign enemy." (from Themes in Chemical Prohibition)Attack my position if you will, but leave the Shrub out of it. I'm not on his side.Back to the topic of fantasizing that the government will do the right thing -- I'll post a Harry Browne article that makes some excellent points.
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Comment #9 posted by kaptinemo on October 03, 2001 at 05:17:29 PT:
And Dan, something for you...
Again, taken from DEAWatch Sep 2001, 21:10 PST, 5th Edition "The Captain Hook Syndrome":The law prohibits us from political discussion at work. But each of us knows full well that any conversation supporting the current political party in the White House has never been punished. We also know that during the Clinton years any conversation critical of that White House was also never prosecuted if we made sure that when we spoke our minds it was to the 'right people'.But today we are living in a different world than we lived in just 10 months ago. Back then, and for 8 years prior, you could criticize Clinton as long as you knew that no TC-fink (A note here: the author is referring to Thomas Constantine, former head of the DEA, who apparently had established some sort of "Gestapo withing a Gestapo" to deal with any who were so impolitic to criticize his politically appointed self and job performance. Wheels within wheels within wheels...)was in the room... we learned that lesson when Frank White bit the big one for talking too much to the quote/unquote "wrong people". After Frank went down for the count we informally established a baby 'Good Ole Boy network', knowing who we could talk reality with and who never to say anything more than was job related.I have to say with complete regret that the office world we live in today is far more repressive than anything TC established with his rat fink system, and it has nothing to do with what happened on Sept. 11th. Ever since George W. Bush was elected it has been increasingly Nazi-like in every office. If anyone says anything critical about G.W. Bush red flags go up and the person who dared defile our great leader is put on a s**t list. Sept 11th served to make the environment not only worse, but official.(Emphasis mine -k.)...The fact is, we now have people in the White House and Main Justice who cannot handle any kind of criticism... period! They have ultra thin skins and they feel that they are on a personal mission from (their) God. This new war will come down to becoming a religious war. We have an atheist president who had no prior history of religious devotion (alcohol was his 'God'), but now feigns Christian fervor. We have an Attorney General who sees himself as a possible Thirteenth Disciple, who angered every non-Christian (and Catholics) by holding semi-mandatory prayer in his government chambers. We have a new DEA Administrator who believes that being right is being on The Right... which really means, "you're either with me or you're against me".Now, tell me; doesn't this sound familiar?...The only difference between a Gore presidency and our Bush presidency is freedom of speech would not be criticized either by the White House or its increasingly less than credible Press Secretary Without A Conscience. And people would not be made to fear saying what they really felt. The current White House is using September 11th to punish anyone who speaks a word of dissent against a president who lost the popular vote. The atmosphere we are now living in has not happened for over thirty years since Nixon was president and he used every federal law enforcement agency to persecute his critics. Because none of us wants to see White House paranoia evolve to another Watergate level it would be better if we reigned in our partisan emotions and our desire to stifle free speech among those we work intimately with.I find the tone of these remarks to be shockingly similar to many that are expressed here on a daily basis. Just one problem; the author of them is presumably a DEA agent, who would happily ruin the lives of all who indulge in cannabis. Particularly those active in efforts to return it to it's rightful place in the pharmacopeia. I can't help but think; I'm sure that there were many 'good' patriotic Germans in the Gestapo that personally abhorred Hitler...but carried out their orders with stoic professionalism. No doubt thinking themselves as being above the vitriolic and hysterical they shoved helpless old men, women and children into cattle cars bound for the ovens. That's what is running the DrugWar. It may not wear a swastika armband or lapel pin; it may not speak in a foreign accent; but it has all the hallmarks.
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Comment #8 posted by kaptinemo on October 03, 2001 at 04:55:49 PT:
4d, here's something you might find 
of interest...Taken from DEAWatch: am not going to paste the whole diatribe in here; it's way too long. But it gives you a sense of the mindset of these people. In Nazi Occupied Europe, they would have been known by other names...such as collaborator"30 Sep 2001, 18:27 PST, 5th Edition
"Favoritsm starts at the top", con't:I clap my hands to the frankness of the 1731 writer who appropriately identified the gender of many of our agents. Sissies is what they are.People really need a good understanding of the psychology of the average American law enforcement officer to know why so so many problems exist in the ranks and with various departments and agencies.The basic problem starts with the type of people who get to be police officers or agents. All are people with clean records and narrow vision. That means that while they were growing up they were either over protected by their parents or unashamed cowards who fled from anything controversial or risky. Most are people who were shunned by all the cool kids and largely ignored by the opposite sex. The only benefit these people got from growing up as jarheads, geeks, squares, tighta**es, pinheads and dorks was qualifying for employment in law enforcement where they can now actualize on and live-out their youthful fantasies.(Emphasis mine -k. But isn't it simply amazing the level of candor the author dsplays concerning the psychological makeup of his own chosen profession?)This is why we need to hire criminals to do our spying and doing the kind of work that requires getting one's fingernails dirty. And this is why criminals are always 10 steps ahead of us. (I remember years ago when going through a different kind of academy. The sign read, "It takes a thief to catch a thief." That sign said it all. It meant that if you wanted to catch the enemy agent or criminal you had to know how he thought, and you can't know how he thinks until you think like him. And you can't think like him until, in some respects, you become like him. The catch was learning the criminal mind and instinct without actually being a criminal or doing anything criminal. Fortunately, my academy found a way to train and instill those native talents. Our DEA academy doesn't even remotely come close.)Astounding, isn't it? They write their comments as if they are the only ones reading them. As if the Average American doesn't comprehend the written word...or the attitude behind it.Our tax dollars at work...
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Comment #7 posted by Dan B on October 03, 2001 at 04:55:03 PT:
What's Worse Than A Fool?
I have a theory about Bush that many here may disagree with, but I'm going to say it anyway. We know that Bush is inarticulate, that much is certain, but that does not mean he is an idiot. His father is certainly intelligent (in a very sinister way), and I suspect that this intelligence has been passed to the son. Many very intelligent people have a difficult time expressing themselves, and I believe that Bush is one of them. Does this mean that I agree with what he is doing? No. But what better way for a tyrant to come to power than in the guise of a fool? No, I think that Bush pulled one over on the American people. Many thought we were getting a benign fool, but we really got an intelligent and malevolent dictator. He knows exactly what he is doing, and that makes him a far greater danger than the ignorant fool we thought he was. To believe him a fool is to gloss the fact that he intends to dismantle what is left of a broken down republic.I don't know if you realize this, but Congress has handed Bush the authority to conduct a war without their declaration, and in any way he sees fit. In essence, we no longer have a republic, we have a monarchy. In an ironic testament to the oft-spoken parable that "The Emperor Has No Clothes," our president has just been made emperor. No, Bush is not the idiot. The idiots are those who are buying into every lie they are hearing on television these days. There is no more America, so why buy a flag? Perhaps for the same reason that Germans who disagreed with the Nazis bought their flags and copies of Mein Kampf to display in their homes: to avoid certain death at the hands of a lunatic dictator--worse, at the hands of fellow citizens who have bought into the lie of unity at any cost. Here's a news flash: unity at any cost is tyranny at great cost to liberty. When we rule out dissent, we rule out freedom.Dan B
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Comment #6 posted by dddd on October 03, 2001 at 01:57:38 PT
Witch Testing... indeed a good paralell......But let's just take a look toward the near future.....and consider the horrors of extrapolating todays drug testing,,and imagine "Terror testing".....I know it sounds far-fetched,,but think about how far-fetched drug testing,and no-knock SWAT team terror would have sounded in 1963?....If a war has been declared on an adversary,(real,or imagined,,,,people or things),,then the "enemy",can be imprisoned,accussed,and interogated...........One can only imagine the further insanity in store for the wayward,bleating sheeple,as the lunatic federal monster continues to crush,and smother the Constitution,in yet another witch hunt frenzy!.............
..I love my country,,,and I consider myself a true patriot,,,I would fight for my country,anytime, anywhere,if there was reason to defend the pastures where the sheeple roam,,,,,but I dont buy into this "America united" fake-out,,...the national,federally induced ad campaign that saturates the airwaves,is about as real to me as a Gatorade commercial........I stand united with all my fellow Americans in the true spirit of freedom....I do not consider the bush regime a represenative of American freedom and democracy..  ...And I dont mean to offend anyone,,but in my opinion,,Dubya is a fool,,and an idiot,,,,he's little more than a corporate puppet,,,whos legitimacy was purchased,and is sponsored by corporate bogarts........................ hope that didnt sound radical.....have a nice day........I love America,,and that's why I hate the dark powers that have hijacked it.......dddd
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Comment #5 posted by E_Johnson on October 03, 2001 at 01:00:41 PT
Urine testing compares with witch testing
Back in the days of the witch hunts, women often had to submit to random witch testing. Inspectors would be looking for things that signified the presence of Satan, like an extra nipple or a scar or a rebellious attitude towards the witch inspector.But the primary purpose of witch inspection was of course to commit an invasion upon the body of the suspect so that person would be taught that her body was not hers, her body was subject to inspection by aithorities if they believed it contained signs of the presence of Satan.I totally believe that urine testing now serves the same purpose in our society, except this is a social control program aimed primarily at men, whereas the witch hunts were primarily aimed at controlling women.I hope that more feminists start getting hip to this.The use by the DEA of the equivalent of spectral evidence against hemp oil ought to be a clue.
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Comment #4 posted by xxdr_zombiexx on October 02, 2001 at 20:22:22 PT:
what's important...
What's important is that in no way shape or form will there be any reason existing for people to claim "false positives" on piss tests. Its important to protect the piss test because of the leverage it has over people, and the money it generates for the people with the patent.And is most precisely a witch hunt. Witch hunts are great things for people in power: keep folks distracted from the failings of government, keep the sheep spooked and docile, and possibly even garner a bit of forfieture money. Turn your nieghbors into Narks.What's important is that shunted rights not be recognized or given back. EVERY single piss test outside of prison and not done for medical necessity is an invasion of privacy. Having to show proof of a marijuna-free urine sample is UN-AMERICAN. Totally unamerican and unconstitutional: nobdy has the money to fight it and too many short-sighted, mean-spirited, racist, hateful morons have power in this country.The DEA, the FBI, The CIA..none of these agencies give a rat's ass about people in the end. A few here and there, on their own probably do, but, as can be seen from the numbers of cannabis activists shot and killed by them, when one sees every mean-spirited thing they do to try and halt the inevitable mainstream reality of the cannabis culture, you can see they don't care about people.If you listen to these people you'll find they spend $20 BILLION a year on the war on drugs, ostensibly to prevent 30,000 deaths from cocaine, heroin and othr illegal, dangerous drugs, including misused pharmacueticals. Pharmaceuticals PROPERLY used seem to kill about 100,000 people per year. Nobodys got a crucade to thin those numbers. Aspirin kills. Alcohol kills 450 people a day, tobacco cigarettes kill 1000 people a day-some 350,000 per year. Where's the crucade to save them?There was an atempt to usurp billions of ollars from the tobacco companies..that seems to be shelved or bogged-down. Other than that, there is no forfieture motive with these deaths from legal substances. Which brings us back to cannabis. Nobody ever died from smoking weed, but clearly this is beside the point. Cannabis itself must be suppressed. It's a threat to capitalism and thats why you can't touch it. Smoking pot is eevidence of being a hippy, therefore a you are a threat to Wwhite America. The war comes to you. What's important is tthat the industrial and medicinal aspects of cannabis be tthwarted from any sort of general use. They could care less if you died from smoking it.Wasn't it the DEA that sprayed mexican pot with Paraquat in the late 1970's? THAT killed people. They didn't know..some people were upset by it.
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Comment #3 posted by The GCW on October 02, 2001 at 20:14:20 PT
E Johnson, 
Good point, and informative. When cannabis use becomes legal, it will be used again as sacrament full on out in the open. The Spiritual implications are not any less significant than the other 1000 facets of cannabis laws, and it seems that there is incredible sacramental facets, still unknown to most of us. There is more to it, as sacrament, and that may be the biggest fear of those who lead, and may have some understanding. Sometimes, as I know how certain it is, that cannabis is way safe, I speculate that they know and are hogging it. If there is more spiritual sacramental links, they know it, and are hogging it.Isn't it hard to imagine the ignorance needed to cage a human for using cannabis?Will SWAT be used to control the use of hemp seed oil? Is my salad safe from a no knock raid? Wow.Gamma Linolenic Acid (Gla) is only available in about 5 places on the planet, and it beneficial in a strong immune system. Those 5 are borage, black currant seed oil, primrose tea, hemp seed oil, and mothers milk. Who do you think put that there?Our Brains have THC receptor sites, for accepting THC for something. Who do you think put that there? If we take all the THC out of the country, what happens to those THC receptor sites? Skull and Bones may well have a better understanding.Doesn't Reagan have Alhsziemers (sp. of course), which is thought to be comforted with cannabis? Is it unreasonable to request::: test him.
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Comment #2 posted by E_Johnson on October 02, 2001 at 17:45:05 PT
Spectral evidence
The DEA's ban on hemp touching the body is really tying this persecution of marijuana users to the witch hunts.The idea that hemp oil has any addictive or narcotic effect is akin to the idea that a widow could utter a few nasty words and make her neighbors cows go dry and her horses miscarry their foals.This is the return of spectral evidence. I.e. they can make something sound spooky and use the fear they generate and the irrationality they encourage with that to do real harm to real people. But in the end it's all just a bunch of ooky scary wrods, none of it is real in the sense of being physically measurable.Like the drug effect of hemp oil soap is physically unmeasurable, it's just a bunch of of ooky spooky words perpetrated into speech by the DEA. Ooooh THC Ooky spooky, give us the shivers, make the cow go dry.I can't believe that the DEA agents truly believe that hemp oil is a drug. I think their immunity to reason has to come from some other less honorable place (less honorable than just being dumb). When people show complete and utter immunity to plain simple reason -- that has to be coming from some deliberate and powerful motive, like one of those sins in the Bible. Lust greed mendacity gluttony and company...Is this all just a simple matter of plain old bureaucratic corruption?That's a dangerous force in history. Self-serving careerist bureaucrats brought down more than one Chinese emperor.
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Comment #1 posted by freedom fighter on October 02, 2001 at 16:57:05 PT
Death agency
"The DEA gave notice in the May 14 Federal Register that it intends to publish the rules regarding hemp, saying they are necessary "in order to protect public health and safety." The rules would clarify that THC is listed as a controlled substance, even if it originates from hemp."DEA cares about your health and safety?? There are 9 thousand agents sucking tax money. I have eaten stems and took piss tests and came out negative.. When are we going to close this death agency?ff
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