cannabisnews.com: Russians Thrash Drug Takers To Stop Addiction










††Russians Thrash Drug Takers To Stop Addiction

Posted by FoM on June 17, 2001 at 07:51:35 PT
By Mark Franchetti, Yekaterinburg †
Source: Sunday Times†

The teenage heroin addict knew what would happen when his mother brought him to the City Without Drugs rehabilitation centre. He had heard about the beatings given to new arrivals. It was just after midnight when his turn came. Accompanied by another young addict, he was taken in silence from a damp, overcrowded cellar where he had briefly been held and escorted to a derelict house nearby. He was strapped face down to a narrow bed and his trousers were pulled down. Moments later the screaming began. 
The "treatment" he received is meted out by City Without Drugs, a group that has declared war on narcotics in the industrial city of Yekaterinburg, 900 miles east of Moscow. The group's founders, three wealthy businessmen, claim remarkable success in curing addiction - but the cure is intimidating in the extreme. Standing in darkness on either side of the teenager's bed, the guards pulled out leather belts and folded them for extra thickness. They then beat his buttocks, taking it in turns to strike while his cries grew louder and more desperate with each passing minute. One of the assailants used a cigarette lighter to inspect red buckle marks on raw flesh. Satisfied, he barked a few threats and called for his next victim. The second addict, who had been lying terrified on an adjacent bed, was beaten without delay. At one point the pain was so great that he passed out. His tormentors hit him in the face to bring him round and resumed the thrashing. By the end of the session each had received 300 lashes; both had to be helped back to the cellar, where they were to spend the rest of their first week at the centre. "On the first day we beat them with belts until their buttocks turn blue," boasted Igor Varov, one of the three businessmen behind City Without Drugs. "Every week we have to buy a new belt because they go too soft, but we have been impressed with the quality of Gucci belts. "Drug addicts are animals who have lost all sense of values. This way, the next time they think about getting a fix they remember the pain of the thrashing rather than the rush of the drugs. It's very effective. You cannot solve this with mild manners - you need tough measures." It was two years ago that Varov, one of the richest men in Yekaterinburg, and his partners launched their campaign against the drug menace. They said they had been forced to take matters into their own hands because the local authorities had failed to address a level of addiction that is among the worst in Russia. Their followers mounted ferocious punitive raids on drug dealers. One suspected dealer was tied to a tree with a sign saying he was poisoning the city's youth. Others had their legs broken or their homes set on fire. But such was the demand for places at the rehabilitation centre that a second one has opened. After their initial beating, addicts spend their first few weeks handcuffed to a bed, left to face their withdrawal symptoms with nothing stronger than bread and water. Later the inmates are put to work chopping down trees or labouring. Nobody is allowed to leave during the treatment, which lasts a year. The few who have tried to escape have been brought back and punished. Former inmates who test positive for drugs are also subjected to beatings. Before handing over their children, parents are required to sign a form absolving the managers of responsibility for any harm that might be done. Some 200 young addicts are under their supervision. Varov claims his methods have cured 50 former addicts in less than 18 months, several of whom have stayed on to work at the centre. Drug consumption and trafficking in the city have also dropped sharply, he says. Many condemn the methods. Police officers have gathered evidence of inmates being beaten with batons and sticks. They have also recorded testimony from addicts who claim to have been handcuffed to iron bars and left dangling. Such allegations are denied by the centres. Andrei, 20, who was treated at the centre and is too afraid of reprisals to give his full name, described how he tried to escape from one centre but was beaten so badly that he spent three weeks in hospital and was scarred for life. "I was made to lie on the floor. Then two guys, one with a rubber baton and another with a wooden handle from a spade, beat me until I was unconscious," he said. "I was then left to hang handcuffed for three days from a wall. They are sadists. They love the power - that's what it is all about. You can hardly call it therapy." Cold turkey: young addicts in Yekaterinburg are beaten with leather belts then chained to their beds while they detoxify. Some claim it is a regime based on sadism. Complete Title: Russians Thrash Their Drug Takers To Stop Addiction Source: Sunday Times (UK)Author: Mark Franchetti, Yekaterinburg Published: June 17 2001Copyright: 2001 Times Newspapers Ltd.Website: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/Contact: editor sunday-times.co.ukCannabisNews Articles - Heroinhttp://cannabisnews.com/thcgi/search.pl?K=heroin

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Comment #32 posted by Rakovsky on June 02, 2004 at 17:08:30 PT:
Zero Tolerance for Zero Tolerance
This is a typical F-king example of what happens when a country based on socialism or helping poor people like Sweden or here the Soviet Union falls apart. The Soviet had no GULAG and a moratorium on the death penalty in the 1950's. Punishment in school did not exist. No "discipline system." this is true for sweden today too. yes, Shocking to hear for Americans, where maybe 500,000 are beaten in schools every year especially in the south.
The example here is like the rehab boot camps in the texas desert where youth get black and blue "paddlings." In both cases this is from PRIVATE organizations, "charities" on the outside, where the government has little control or oversight. Notice in the article the police seemed a little set against the "fund" but not empowered... just like with child welfare services in the south.
 This wild capitalism is what russia is falling into and is rampant in the south of the US. A total shithole with daily school beatings in the south.
please see www.nospank.net
F-k capitalism. F-ck texas. The South will ri\s- be smashed again.sweden is a big alternative- with extremely low rates of hard drug use- and low punitiveness.
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Comment #31 posted by Rambler on June 18, 2001 at 18:32:56 PT
The Problem
O.K.Here's my 3 cents worth.Ben writes;>"My short answer in the meantime is that corporations have NO power to coerce      you, except what the government lends to them. Corporations can offer "the      carrot", i.e. they can tempt, lure, and bribe you to try to get you on their side. But      they CANNOT use "the stick", cannot initiate force, cannot send men with guns to      compel you to do things or take things away from you. Only GOVERNMENTS      have these powers."" NO power to coerce you, except what the government lends to them.",THAT'S WHERE THEPROBLEM IS. "Only GOVERNMENTS have these powers."The boundary between corporations,and government is becoming increasingly nebulous.This is a major reason that this drug war insanity is with us,and will not go away soon.
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Comment #30 posted by Ben Cohn on June 18, 2001 at 17:43:27 PT:
Corporations cannot coerce
Dear New Mexican,Thank you for your response. I will evaluate more of the information at the links you provided as I have time. I have already taken a cursory glance at a couple of them.My short answer in the meantime is that corporations have NO power to coerce you, except what the government lends to them. Corporations can offer "the carrot", i.e. they can tempt, lure, and bribe you to try to get you on their side. But they CANNOT use "the stick", cannot initiate force, cannot send men with guns to compel you to do things or take things away from you. Only GOVERNMENTS have these powers.You said: "First, it's o.k. for multinational corporations to feed people toxic, unhealthy, and grossly overcommercialized products, not food (14 grams of fat in one order of fries. touche'). And profit from it."Yes, if people choose to pay for it and eat it. As I've said, no one in this country is compelled to eat at McDonalds. I have never been forced into a McDonalds' restaurant in my life. Even in less free countries, I do not believe that people are forced to eat there.You said: "Do they pay the cost of hospitalization for victims of high cholesteral, heart attacks, the sins of the beef and cattle industry (mad cow, foot and mouth, etc.)"No. Why should they? People suffer the consequences of their own actions. Nowhere on the packaging of a Quarter Pounder does it say "Will never cause heart disease." If I live on a steady diet of Snickers bars, do I have a right to sue that company when I develop diabetes and tooth decay? Or would they (properly) laugh me right out of court for blaming my own poor choices on them?Nor is McDonalds responsible for BSE (Bovine Spongiform Encephelopathy, Mad Cow Disease), the British government is. Their idiotic policies allowed the feeding of ground sheep brains to cows. That is not allowed in this country, and we've had no problems with BSE here. And while McDonalds is obviously a major buyer of beef, I think it's a bit of a stretch to lay the problems of that entire industry at their feet. I don't have any evidence that McDonalds coerced or even lobbied British officials to enact that policy, so I don't know what McDonalds has to do with Mad Cow Disease. I'd blame Tony Blair before Micky D's.You said: "But it's not o.k. for us to put something into our bodies that we have decided is good for our state of mind, health and well-being that isn't sanctioned by a major corporation or government. Doesn't that tell you something?"Yes, that our government has too much power, and is too little answerable to you and me. Solution: downsize the government to its constitutionally mandated powers. Then it would be no threat to either of us. If it's as big as it is, it will always dance to the tune of the wealthy and powerful, whether corporations, individuals, or moneyed special interest groups. But it certainly won't do what you or I want it to do.You said: "Corporations are behind the criminalization of drugs first, and governments are just lackeys for these special interests."Drugs were made illegal by an overreaching and out-of-control federal government, abetted by a citizenry who had stopped paying close attention and who didn't fight much against federal encroachment on what should have been a purely individual or medical matter. And in fact, it wasn't a corporation but an individual who was most responsible for the prohibition of cannabis, namely William Randolph Hearst. You said: " Do you buy into this 'Corporate Reality' or is cannabis legalization just a door opener for your newly expanding conscience."Please don't get personal, you know nothing about me. My conscience is neither new or expanding, it's the same moral sense that's always served me well before. My conscious-NESS was expanded long ago, and that consciousness allows me to look beyond simple labels like "corporate criminals" and see who really has the power. Which as usual, is the group with the biggest guns, the government.You said: "I suggest you discect your next whopper and note the grey-green color of the meat. Now gulp it down with the knowledge they would never think of doing harm to you. Such wonderful humanitarians they are at McBarf."At NO point have I said that McDonalds is good, nutritious food, or that I eat it with any regularity (these days almost never.) But again, that's MY CHOICE. No one compelled me either to eat their food or not to. However, I get the sense that you would like to be able to dictate that choice to me, and forbid me (or anyone) from eating food from "McDeath" as you call it. Am I wrong?To understand the enormous difference between corporations and government, and why only governments have the dangerous power of coercion, I recommend Harry Browne's book, "Why Government Doesn't Work." The first half of the book is an excellent discussion of the threat of Big Government, and why adding more powers to the government in an attempt to "regulate" or "reform" a problem is only throwing gas on the fire. We need much less government, not much more.If you have any interest in debating this further, please contact me via the e-mail link above. This thread has grown far too long, and doesn't even relate to the main article.SincerelyBen Cohn
Why Government Doesn't Work, by Harry Browne
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Comment #29 posted by New Mexican on June 18, 2001 at 13:56:43 PT
MacDonalds does kill children AND adults!
Dear Ben,I like your calm and polite manner, and the fact that your anti-prohibition, but let me take you further into McDeath,and its ramifications. First, it's o.k. for multinational corporations to feed people toxic, unhealthy, and grossly overcommercialized products, not food (14 grams of fat in one order of fries. touche'). And profit from it. Do they pay the cost of hospitalization for victims of high cholesteral, heart attacks, the sins of the beef and cattle industry (mad cow, foot and mouth, etc.) Please do your research.But it's not o.k. for us to put something into our bodies that we have decided is good for our state of mind, health and well-being that isn't sanctioned by a major corporation or government. Doesn't that tell you something? Or does 1+1=4? You want facts?Go to:http://www.mcdonalds.com/countries/usa/food/ingredient_list/index.html If you want to defend corporations and corporate criminals, which you don't seem to mind doing, fine. But when you talk about facts, just look them up and they'll stare you in the face. Corporations are behind the criminalization of drugs first, and governments are just lackeys for these special interests. You need proof, well look at the state of American society. We have a 'Global Village Idiot' for 'resident', the world laughs at georgie II, while our media props him up and shoves hom down our throats. Do you buy into this 'Corporate Reality' or is cannabis legalization just a door opener for your newly expanding conscience. I hope so. I didn't say anything about Microsoft, so I don't know where that came from, I'm being specific and MacDonalds is my beef. Non-food kills and I wouldn't feed my pets MacDonalds, nor would they eat it. I suggest you discect your next whopper and note the grey-green color of the meat. Now gulp it down with the knowledge they would never think of doing harm to you. Such wonderful humanitarians they are at McBarf. I'm done. Let's get high!Here are some more links for your fact-based diet:http://www.mcspotlight.org/case/factsheet.html http://www.envirolink.org/mcspotlight/campaigns/current/mckids.html http://www.envirolink.org/mcspotlight/campaigns/translations/trans_uk.html 
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Comment #28 posted by New Mexican on June 18, 2001 at 13:53:15 PT
MacDonalds does kill children AND adults!
Dear Ben,I like your calm and polite manner, and the fact that your anti-prohibition, but let me take you further into McDeath,and its ramifications. First, it's o.k. for multinational corporations to feed people toxic, unhealthy, and grossly overcommercialized products, not food (14 grams of fat in one order of fries. touche'). And profit from it. Do they pay the cost of hospitalization for victims of high cholesteral, heart attacks, the sins of the beef and cattle industry (mad cow, foot and mouth, etc.) Please do your research.But it's not o.k. for us to put something into our bodies that we have decided is good for our state of mind, health and well-being that isn't sanctioned by a major corporation or government. Doesn't that tell you something? Or does 1+1=4? You want facts?Go to:http://www.mcdonalds.com/countries/usa/food/ingredient_list/index.html If you want to defend corporations and corporate criminals, which you don't seem to mind doing, fine. But when you talk about facts, just look them up and they'll stare you in the face. Corporations are behind the criminalization of drugs first, and governments are just lackeys for these special interests. You need proof, well look at the state of American society. We have a 'Global Village Idiot' for 'resident', the world laughs at georgie II, while our media props him up and shoves hom down our throats. Do you buy into this 'Corporate Reality' or is cannabis legalization just a door opener for your newly expanding conscience. I hope so. I didn't say anything about Microsoft, so I don't know where that came from, I'm being specific and MacDonalds is my beef. Non-food kills and I wouldn't feed my pets MacDonalds, nor would they eat it. I suggest you discect your next whopper and note the grey-green color of the meat. Now gulp it down with the knowledge they would never think of doing harm to you. Such wonderful humanitarians they are at McBarf. I'm done. Let's get high!
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Comment #27 posted by jAHn on June 17, 2001 at 19:47:07 PT

Happenin' in AmeriKKKa, also...
...Only not as intense! When people are brought to a Hospitalization Center, they are at risk of being strapped to a F #cking ((thanks Dan B! The ampersand and numeral symbols ADD alot to the Censored F Word!)) bed and Fed a cocktail of Asscroft's Pills until they're constipated and/or Vomitting...Shi((f))ting from the mouth if they "ADMIT" to smoking a joint ((Ritualistically or Experimentally)). Hope You had Fun spending your ((and my- unwillingly)) TAX CASH and EconoBucks on a System that Chews up and has a tough THYME digesting the shit that "WE" call---------------------------"OUR MORALS"......  I say, "Screw your Mother and Father" then I Hump 22 trees for the sake of your waste... "to set the record straight, announcing to MY self....WAKE UP!!! WAKE U  P!!!" "We kill EVERY thing that's NOT tied DOWN--We Euthanize, but Keep ALIVE- the LOWEST FORM of Prison LIFE-So Useful and Experimental---Treatment of the Sick and Dying"  "What about the Torture?"- K.M.F.D.M. ((I hope you're scared, 'cause I sure am---My big brother/sister--.)) Only I have NO army, NO gun, NO HATRED, ALL FUN!!!      F   # C K     Y O U Prohibitor of Freedom!!!
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Comment #26 posted by Rambler on June 17, 2001 at 18:14:40 PT

killer!
TroutMask,your fact floored meThank You,that was a goodie.
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Comment #25 posted by Ben Cohn on June 17, 2001 at 18:11:07 PT:

Agreed, it's gross.
As I said, I don't eat the stuff much, it's not very good for me. But there's a big difference between something that is poor nutritionally, and neurotoxins.I wasn't sure if rebinator was joking, so I allowed that as a possibility (when I said to ignore the rest if s/he was just being facetious) but s/he got huffy about it, and off we went.I'm actually not angry about any of this, I just like a chance to make people think and practice my rhetorical skills. Thanks all of you for allowing me to do that.Anyway, I think I've said enough today, and enough is too much. Later y'allBen
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Comment #24 posted by lookinside on June 17, 2001 at 16:50:05 PT:

LOL!!!..
ben...i did not say that sheep were genius's...but (at leastthe genetically unaltered) sheep can be pretty crafty (everhunted a bighorn sheep?)...i was just teasing you anyway...ijust got tickled when you made such a bold statement withoutreferences to back you up...and couldn't resist...we need asense of humor...i took rebinator's comment as a joke immediately, becausefew russians have the extra rubles needed to eat toxicquantities of mickyD's fare...it took some killer panama red (1971) to get me to eat 5 bigmacs, 3 large fries, and 2 chocolate shakes at onesitting...nobody can tell me mickyD's isn't toxic in largequantities...i was sick for days...LOL
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Comment #23 posted by TroutMask on June 17, 2001 at 16:39:18 PT

FACT
I would like some McDonald's fries.
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Comment #22 posted by Ben Cohn on June 17, 2001 at 16:35:17 PT:

Thanks
dddd (always makes me wonder what all those d's stand for!)'Preciate your compliment very much. It's easy to be inspired by the high level of commentary on this board, especially by folks like Kaptinemo, Dan. B. and quite a few others. We all FEEL strongly about the drug war, but it's good to THINK strongly about it, too.Hey lookinside: Well, all my personal observations of sheep and everything I've ever seen or read about them indicates a distinct lack of reasoning ability. I mean, would YOU let a shepherd sneak up on you and boink you? :)PeaceBen
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Comment #21 posted by dddd on June 17, 2001 at 16:17:48 PT

Ben
....My compliments on your exquisite and eloquentresponse.....I dont want to take sides,but I hope ourfriend New Mexican will reconsider his critique.....Personally,,,I am somewhat mystified as to whyRebinator and N.M reacted the way they did........Oh well......."If nothing's wrong,,,,everything is allright"......d..d..d..d
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Comment #20 posted by lookinside on June 17, 2001 at 16:16:12 PT:

SHEEP CAN'T THINK????
who says sheep can't think?...do you have the research toback that up?...LOLOL
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Comment #19 posted by Ben Cohn on June 17, 2001 at 15:54:16 PT:

On topic comment, and rebuttal
To all and sundry,Sorry for the ongoing nature of this conversation, especially within the context of this important article. I am far more interested in fighting the counter-drug war instead of arguing amongst supposed "allies".The problem of sadistic "treatments" exists everywhere. This particular Russian example may be shockingly brutal, but only a little more so than our own Rehab Racket. If you don't believe me, believe someone who has researched this and fought if for years no, Mr. Arnold Trebach. His impassioned commentary is contained in the following interview: http://www.drcnet.org/wol/190.html#arnoldtrebachIt is quite pertinent to this topic.To New Mexican:You ask, "What are facts?"(Random House Dictionary, 2nd Unabridged definition, Fact- Def. 3): A truth know by actual experience or observation; something known to be true.Statements are not facts. Beliefs are not facts. Assumptions are not facts. A statement, belief, or assumption that is tested by verifiable and repeatable methodology is a fact.Fact: I do not own stock in McDonalds. I would be willing to show you my stock portfolio to prove this.My strong belief is that everyone, citizen and corporate entities alike, should be assumed innocent until proven guilty. No one has proved to me, by use of facts (as defined above) that McDonalds is guilty of poisoning me or anyone else. You say: "If MacDonalds does use GMOs in their fries, thats enough for me!"I ask you, why is that? Can you show me facts that support the idea that Genetically Modified Organisms are harmful, or that it is an automatic sign of maliciousness or negligence if a corporation makes use of them? By GMO's, I am assuming that you mean organisms modified by use of recombinant DNA techniques? Because farmers have been genetically modifying animals and plants for millennia by cross-breeding and animal husbandry, and scientists have been using chemicals, radiation, and direct physical "shotgun" techniques for decades to induce mutations, which are then culled to find favorable characteristics. So what exactly constitutes a GMO in your book?You say: "Prove their safe and not the other way around."It is impossible to prove a negative. Did you ever take a course in logic? You can prove that UFO's exist, but no one can prove they don't. You can show that food is harmful, it is impossible to show that is "safe." At best we can say that something is "very likely not to be harmful in most circumstances."You say: "Anyway, you're off on a tangent and why you need to defend Macdonalds is beyond me, they have enough overpaid lawyers defending their corrupt influence over 'the children'."I defend McDonalds (and Microsoft as well) for the reasons I stated above. No one has proved to me that these corporations are doing wrong, and therefore I extend them the same presumption of innocence that I would give you. The fact that McDonalds does a good job of catering to their target market and advertises to them is not a crime. McDonalds employees do not force children up to the counter at gunpoint. No devices have been attached to adults' cars to guide them into McDonalds parking lots. We go there of our own free will, and get what we want.You say: "Get a Life! Put your energy into stopping the "drug war" Thanks!"So should I put my energy into stopping the drug war, or hating Mcdonalds, or fighting GMO's? You seem to want me to do many things.All I ask of anyone is to think and be reasonable. If you have the "goods" on McDonalds, New Mexican, then dish! I'm all ears. As far as I know, they're just a major fast food chain. I don't eat their food much anymore, but that's just a personal choice, and I wouldn't force it on anyone else.I categorically refuse to subscribe to some dogmatic set of beliefs, whether defined by liberals, conservative, or others. The fact that I oppose the drug war does not automatically make me anti-capitalist, anti-technology, or pro-regulation. Quite the contrary, I support the right of McDonalds to put whatever they want in their food as much as I support the right of all people to put whatever they want into their own bodies. If I feel uncomfortable with McDonalds ingredients or level of disclosure about them, then it's up to me to not eat there. If I don't like your substance use, then it's up to me to go somewhere away from you. If either you or McDonalds impose yourself on me, do me any physical harm or economic damage, or take away my constitutional rights in some way, then I have a right to take you or them to court.My way of stopping the drug war is to get people to think clearly and for themselves. People can think, sheep cannot.PeaceBen
Arnold Trebach interview
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Comment #18 posted by Rambler on June 17, 2001 at 15:12:36 PT

Uh-oh
looks like New Mexican is turnin' up the heat.Oh well,I guess strong viewpoints make for a morerobust discussion.
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Comment #17 posted by Rambler on June 17, 2001 at 15:08:35 PT

Thanx Ben
I appreciate the appreciation.Most everyone who takes the time to comment here,aregood,intelligent people,who are generally on the same sidewhen it comes to the WoDs.Differences of opinion are anatural and healthy part of these discussions,but it's easyto get sidetracked sometimes.I hope Rebinator was notoffended by my attempted mediation.Peace
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Comment #16 posted by New Mexican on June 17, 2001 at 15:00:44 PT

Prove McDonalds isn't deadly!
BenCohn:Do you own stock in MacDonalds?What are facts? Something YOU decide are facts?His statement was out of frustration, but you seize on it like it would affect you stock portfolio. If MacDonalds does use GMOs in their fries, thats enough for me!Prove their safe and not the other way around. Anyway, you're off on a tangent and why you need to defend Macdonalds is beyond me, they have enough overpaid lawyers defending their corrupt influence over "the children" Get a Life! Put your energy into stopping the "drug war" Thanks!
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Comment #15 posted by Ben Cohn on June 17, 2001 at 14:34:30 PT:

Thanks, Rambler
Nice peacemaking, you tried to say conciliatory things to both parties.I mighta been a bit out of line with my first post. I tend to take a very rationalist and objectivist point of view, and like things to be grounded in fact and empiricism. I've had my fill of people parroting things they hear through gossip or questionable media sources, and want everyone to avail themselves of that large grey organ between their ears. Alas, some people seem merely to use it to balance their head, and that rankles the scientist in me.Anyway, I didn't mean to attack rebinator, and I hope he/she is OK with that. I pride myself on being open-minded, and will read opposing viewpoints on any subject, even D.E.A. press releases. BELIEVING them, well that's another story entirely!!PeaceBen Cohn
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Comment #14 posted by RandÝm_ on June 17, 2001 at 14:21:02 PT

back to the topic at hand (not burgers) :)
Hmf, let's not argue the health of fast food (maybe it is mentally harmful, maybe not ... but they are unhealthy in excess, like all other things if "in excess.")Articles sometimes sensationalise facts, sometimes the truth is just as devastating as it appears. I believe people would be more prone to comprehending a thing called "humanity" if they had to take the medicine they dish. In other words, if you want to beat someone's addiction out black and blue, you should be obligated to get beaten black and blue and see if you can then turn the other "cheek."People who want to declare war on everything (as if torment solves social ills) would second think their methodologies if the people who are the victims of such wars actually fought back in the fashion in which they are persecuted...anti-drug terrorist-typed squads, poisonous pesticides, lies of propoganda, and witch-hunts to blame all the problems of the world on. Sad and ironic, but one is treated dastardly because of their choice to use drugs (not advocating or stigmatising at this point) as an element of their taking personal responsibility for their choices, but, after all, personal responsibility is not taken into consideration on whether the individual actually commits victim-ful crimes from their choice or not. If not for a blatant double standard, there would be no standard at all.I am all for punishing victimisers, not people who choose differently than I. Arrest some one for stealing to buy drugs (or expensive tennis-shoes), not for the goal, but for the act... but I guess only arresting only victimisers makes just too much sense for any penal system to contemplate.
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Comment #13 posted by Rambler on June 17, 2001 at 14:00:19 PT

Right on Ben
I think maybe Rebinator is sorta stressed.His response did seem a bit brash,but I liketo cut everyone plenty of slack.Also,I think your commentary is excellent,(I amsure you are not an "asshole").  I would neverdare to suggest that Rebinator is an asshole.I think he might be rather sensitive on his day off.
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Comment #12 posted by Rambler on June 17, 2001 at 13:46:44 PT

High stress
Wow Rebinator,you aint messin around.I think your commentarywas excellent,but I'm glad I didnt make the mistake Ben made.Who knows,perhaps Ben is an asshole,but I think maybe you havea hair trigger.This is justifiable,bein' that it's your day off andall,but I'm glad Ben tested the waters, I dont think I'd want toget on your bad side.Nonetheless,I like your style,and I think you could use some moredays off.  keep on keepin' onPeace
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Comment #11 posted by Ben Cohn on June 17, 2001 at 13:25:53 PT:

Offense was not my intention
Rebinator,I was not attempting to put your facts on trial, I was trying to ascertain if they were facts at all. Your unsupported statements are not facts, nor are they convincing to me. If you want me to agree with your position or at least see your points, you must explain yourself. Simpling saying that fast food contains brain damaging chemical does not make it so, although it certainly COULD be true. I don't know, and you have done nothing to convince me.Also, I didn't assume that you don't know what you are talking about, I asked questions. Such as: how do you know these things, and how can I check them for myself? If I assumed you didn't know, I wouldn't bother to ask you.Lastly, you seem to miss the entire point of my statement and the supporting quote. I wanted to check the facts for MYSELF, rather than assuming that you were right or wrong based on my personal feelings or intuitions. However, the only thing I have learned, and I'm not sure that it's a hard fact, is that you seem to be easily offended. My apologies, t'was not my intent.If you post statements in a public forum, that makes you at least somewhat answerable for them (unless you're a shout-and-run type, which I consider quite cowardly.)So I repeat, got a URL or a study title about fast food to recommend? Or do you still stand behind that statement?Brave enough to post my real name,Ben Cohn
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Comment #10 posted by lookinside on June 17, 2001 at 13:17:22 PT:

eliminating a REALLY harzardous drug...
lol...i'm SURE if we break down a regular mickyD's burger,we can find something bad for us besides the obvious redmeat, mayonaise..etc...the ticket is doing all things(exceptchocolate!) in moderation...it has been proven that torture does work...the problem isthat it turns the torturors into monsters...it also turnsthe victims into subhuman slaves...i wonder if someone might soon decide to give the 3businessmonsters a taste of their own medicine?
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Comment #9 posted by rebinator on June 17, 2001 at 11:03:54 PT

Ben
Yes, it was a joke. Let me tell you a couple of things.First of all, my facts are not on trial here. And,furthermore, neither am I. For all you know, I do haveevidence. This is a forum for dissection of articles aboutthe Drug War. So don't waste your time.Secondly, I am more than a little bit insulted that youwould assume that I don't know what I'm talking about. Spareme. This is my day off. I'm not answerable to you.Peace.
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Comment #8 posted by FoM on June 17, 2001 at 10:47:46 PT

My 2 cents
If you beat someone who is already in agony from withdrawal they will need heroin more then ever to stop the additional pain they are receiving. Addicted people are broken already why oh why make matters worse? What good does inflicted pain on a human being do? 
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Comment #7 posted by sm247 on June 17, 2001 at 10:36:26 PT

Warriors come out and play
We need to get Amnesty International on this. This is inhuman treatment.
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Comment #5 posted by Mark Edgerton on June 17, 2001 at 09:16:55 PT:

Help Mark Edgerton for Governor of New Jersey
Mark Edgerton to The Honorable Donald DiFrancesco Please make comment at this post this issue will be ours http://www.nj.com/forums/governors/index.ssf
http://www.markedgerton.com
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Comment #4 posted by Ben Cohn on June 17, 2001 at 09:15:05 PT:

Is there evidence of that?
Rebinator,While I agree with your hope that some punishment awaits sadists like these in the afterlife, I was less in accord with your fast food remark (unless it was meant facetiously, in which case ignore all the rest of this.)"...Certain chemicals in fast food lead to brain damage.Could the McDonalds invasion be taking its toll on thehapless Russians not even 11 years after the Americaninvasion?"You state this as a certainty. What is the evidence? What convinced you? Do you have any links to any good studies or experiments on this topic?We must never fall into the prohibitionist practice of treating weakly supported or even unsupported allegations as gospel truth, and then acting on that "truth." to quote Robert Heinlein (as Lazarus Long):"What are the facts? Again and again and again - what are the FACTS? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what 'the stars foretell', avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable 'verdict of history' - what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!"So what are the facts about fast food? I know the facts about drugs and prohibition, and sadistic creeps like the Russian Rehab Racket. But what about McDonalds?Ben Cohn
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Comment #3 posted by dddd on June 17, 2001 at 09:03:33 PT

You See?
O.K.....It's time for your treatment,,,,,here's your TreatmentAssociate,Mr Sluggo.He will be responsible for treating you forthe next 6 days..........The day may yet come,when rotting in jail will be preferableto going into some slipshod privitized,outsourced treatmentprogram nightmare......d..d....d......d
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Comment #2 posted by R.earing on June 17, 2001 at 09:01:43 PT:

Franchise opportunity! McCafferys 
Coming soon to your area! Exciting new rehab center chain.Turnkey operation,big profits! You'll have a steady stream of clients once the little Bush kid stacks the Supreme Court with fossil remnants of the Nixon Administration.We supply the advertising! "Won't someone please think of the children?" and "Marijuana is still the most dangerous drug in America".We supply the clients through our exclusive "mandatory minimums" agreement with the DEA and State prosecutors. 150 Million Americans smoke pot-the skys the limit on profit. Won't you help us to help your community AND make big bucks by peddling phony state ordered drug rehab? So call Barry M. realty today and get started on your personal wealth building Journey.(555-1212)
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Comment #1 posted by rebinator on June 17, 2001 at 08:50:58 PT

Apparently...
   ...Certain chemicals in fast food lead to brain damage.Could the McDonalds invasion be taking its toll on thehapless Russians not even 11 years after the Americaninvasion? Could it be that there are places where evolutionis so retarded by cultural baggage, that these businessmencan get away with this kind of sadism, and, additionally, bebuilding up a client base?   Articles like this make me hope there's a hell. Perhapsits not about being shown what your 'sins', but rather whateffect your 'sins' had on others.
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