"We cannot, by total reliance on law, escape the duty to judge right and wrong. ... There are good laws and there are occasionally bad laws, and it conforms to the highest traditions of a free society to offer resistance to bad laws, and to disobey them."

I attended the debate and it was pretty good. The guy from the DEA made a few good points but his ignorance definetely came through. Especially when a student, attempting to ask a question, starting talking about the "evil circle" of money that exist between the government and drug cartels. Robert replied, "You mean to tell me the government is MAKING money off the drug war!!!!!" Shouts of "Exactly!" and "Uhhh....yeah!" were a few of the things I heard from the crowd.

Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.
Frederick Douglass, August 4, 1857

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Hi, I'm new to this site, which I think is a great source of information. (Sorry if this is 'off topic', but I don't really know where to post this - hope it's ok) I'm neither really a 'prohibitionist' or pro-legalisation, though I think it's a subject that needs to be talked about a lot more.

Anyway, I keep noticing arguments that are used again and again by both sides, with an almost religious fervour while they accuse each other of lies and stupidity and being evil. There are a lot of examples of this, usually oversimplistic, unscientific propaghanda.

One thing that stands out is the argument I've seen several times saying things like 'Marijuana never killed a single person in 5 thousand years, while tobacco kills 400k a day myth', which I've seen used to argue that marijuana should be made legal like cigarettes.

eg. "you fail to miss the FACTS that while Cannabis impairs someones ability to drive (again not a part of the original article, but something I don't think anyone would doubt), in over five THOUSAND years, not one person has had the words "marijuana overdose" written on their death certificate. Lung cancer from tobacco use claimed over 400,000 American lives last year."

The most obvious, is that just because marijuana is less harmful than tobacco does not logically mean that it is harmless. It's not an argument you can use for legalisation, all it can be used for is to say that cigarettes should be criminalized, which I don't think is the goal.

Another argument could be: Can the harm caused by a drug really be measured solely by the number of deaths? You could have a drug like Crack doesn't cause many direct deaths, but completely ruins the lives of regular users. It seems to be a bit more complicated than that, if you really want to be scientific a lot more things should be taken into account, for example non-fatal health, social, psychological problems too.

You say 400k people die of cigarettes a year through lung cancer, but that nobody dies of cannabis smoke, even though cannabis smoke is known to be carcinogenic (just like smoking any plant), probably more per gram, especially if you consider that cigarette smokers use filters. The whole argument isounds like bad science to me anyway - how can you say that the cause of somebody's lung cancer is solely tobacco smoke and nothing else contributed to it? Have any studies been made specifically to measure the number of lung cancer deaths caused by cannabis smoke, like they've done for tobacco?

What you might be able to say is that there are no recorded DIRECT deaths from cannabis, but then the same is probably true of tobacco - I don't think nicotine overdose is a major risk of death. Talking Indirect deaths I'd say they're probably about the same, per gram smoked, maybe even higher for marijuana.

This is misinformation and illogical argument, exactly the same as the prohibitionists use, and I think it detracts from your cause, especially after you've sneered at and ridiculised others for using your own methods.

Ifyour policy is to prohibit the substances that are the most harmful and dangerous, and marijuana is no more harmful or dangerous than alcohol or tobacco, then this is either a reason to make marijuana legal or a reason to make alcohol and tobacco illegal. I can't see how you can escape this logic unless you travel to the land of "Just Because."

The WOD, of course, is not predicated on logic, but on ideology. (from the Schmeff-Devil's Dictionary: Ideology-the point where what I believe is more important than what I know [see unbalanced].) In the 'rock-paper-scissors' world of drug policy debate, ideology is the paper that covers the rock hard kernal of truth every time. (Yes, it's a tenuous metaphor, and no, I don't know what the scissors symbolize - CNews?)

Ideology is what allows Stutman to say (and I'm paraphrasing here "Just because our policy is hypocritical and illogical doesn't mean we should change it."

A good dose of ideology can make almost anything possible. Consider the historical evidence:*

"Just because Enron is a giant Ponzi scheme does not mean that its employees shouldn't invest their life savings in it." - Kenneth Lay

"Just because I didn't get elected doesn't mean I'm not gonna stick it to you." - George W.

"Just because my laws are based on ideology doesn't mean I'm not going to put you in the gulag until you wither away and die." - Josef Stalin

Reefers- Although Amerikan Attorney General John Ashcroft had announced beforehand that he would not be accepting off topic questions, he did offer a response, of sorts, to a reporter's question about medical marijuana.

When asked how he could justify devoting resources to arresting the sick and dying at a time when terrorism posed such a threat, he grimly pointed his thumb towards a button on his lapel which read "Just Because."

Ashcroft had announced a press conference today to deny widespread rumors that he or the Justice Dept. had anything to do with the dissappearance of U.S. District Judge Robert Jones. The federal judge from Portland had recently been sharply critical of Ashcroft's efforts to stamp out democracy in Oregon. Jones' family have used the media to accuse the Justice Dept of foul play, an effort aided by Ashcroft's open mike gaffe last Tuesday when he was overheard to sing "I got a expletive deleted Jones oh baby, ooooh-ooooh-oooh." Shortly afterward, the reporter who changed the topic to medical marijuana was taken out and shot.

The "Just Because" buttons, which are sprouting on the lapels of Drug Warriors and conservatives like weeds after a rain, are the brainchild of former drug agent Robert Stutman. Policy makers have found the little buttons increasingly useful when confronted with questions about drug policy. "The old "Just Say No" campaign was pretty wore out", says Stutman. "Critics said it was too simplistic, but in fact, it was overly complex. It required too much thinking...as if you had to make a choice." According to Stutman, kids instinctively understand the concept of 'Just Because'. "When I was young, my Mom would always ask me why I kept making wee-wee in my bed. I would say, 'Just because...' I understood this to be the end of the discussion, and I would usually reinforce this belief by getting in my car and crashing at some friends' house for a few days."

He has been in withdrawal and is sick as hell....Lucy is sooo worried he will not make it....she just had gotten off the phone with Steve....he says they are treating them like shit....they are sicker than hell and they are sleeping on cold concrete floors.....he vomiting like crazy and they just stand there not giving them medicine....

STEVE HAS A PRESCRIPTION FROM A CANADIAN DOCTOR AND THEY ARE STILL DENYING HIM THE MORPHINE!!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!

Steve's doctor has said he will die without morphine and MJ, and the Canadian Immigration is denying him ANY medication!!!!!!

SO now neither of them have any medicine of any kind!!!!

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Lucy says that they want to ship him back to the US....where the US MArshall's will get the Humboldt Sheriff on the phone and Steve will die in jail...the Sheriff even said so....

I don't know what to do...can anyone and everyone PLEASE spread the word or anything... even if you have NOTHING to do with this... just if you are disgusted at inhumane treatment....unreal......

ANYONE IN VANCOUVER? Please make it to protest...please....

Lucy can be reached at 604-740-5755...Michelle's is on another post.....

These guys are terminally ill....and they let them suffer.

God, please help them....

idbsne1

Actually the quote is a blatant lie, hemp and marijuana were legal at one time. It is axiomatic at this point in the game. It is much better to lie to people if truth cannot be witheld from a body of knowledge. That confounded truth keeps popping it's head up, and we have to keep lying.

If those who choose to remain ignorant about the marijuana and hemp plants would just think about the comment by Robert Stutman, "it never happened and it won't."